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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:11 am 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
KYLakeKiter wrote:
Wow. Liquid Force is releasing a single strut kite...how revolutionary. I am sure they appreciate the Airush Lithium One doing it first to give them an example. :lol:

Just kidding. I am sure it will be completely new and innovative. :roll:

I think strutless and less struts are here to stay. Sure, there are compromises and they don't fit every application, but once people figure out what they like them for, they will fit right into the mainstream.

I got my first hands on look at a 17M Cloud this weekend, and I was very impressed.


Not that it can be compared directly, but then again - there are more similarities than at first look...

Windsurf sails started without many battens - then with faster racesails they should be fully cambered and stiff, and even freeriders chose these a few years.

Then the goal was to get almost battenless for wave and freestyle sails particulary, really soft and light and simple - and even the racers went for lighter simpler designs with full battens but not cambers.

Somewhat it reminds me of what we are discussing here regarding how many struts ?

Not that it changes anything - I just came to think about it.

(And it ended somewhere in between, not battenless not fully cambered, in windsurfing)

8) Peter

I was being a bit of a wise ass with my earlier statement, but from what the article said about the Liquid Force, it looks like their single strut kite evolved from trying to make a strutless and ended up deciding one strut worked better for them.

My assumption is that the Airush One probably evolved from an originally strutted design taken down to a minimum of one strut to minimize weight for light wind.

Either way, this direction in kite design will surely end up with more and different characteristics and capabilities for future kites. Very fun to follow.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:26 am 
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I have a 17 C1 and it is a very different kite to fly. My experiences echo the majority of the comments here....water on the canopy stinks, it tops out really quick, and there are loads of quirks with the kite.

All that said it is a kite that I keep reaching for and keep flying. I enjoy learning to fly this kite and every time I go out I learn a bit more. I have been quite impressed with davesails7's 18m North kite and he routinely does things with that kite I didn't think possible in light winds and leaves me behind on the beach. He is also a much much better kiter than I am.

Bottom line is that they aren't for everyone and kite skill matters. I like mine and it works for me. I'll probably end up buying one of the smaller clouds like a 12. Anything smaller than that and I'd rather have a traditional strutted kite. My .02


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:16 am 
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Been out on my BRM Cloud17M C2 on both water and snow now. Definitely a session saver in marginal conditions and a fun kite to fly. It has its own learning curve but I expected it would and am enjoying the challenges and achieving fun results when I figure out its uniqueness. Boosting is different but very floaty and fun once you have it dialed.

I've seen a lot of commentary on how great Greg is to deal with and how thorough he is answering questions about the kite. Its always nice to deal with someone who has passion for their product. I'd concur with every positive comment made about dealing with Greg. I'd like to add 1 thing. While its really nice to receive good treatment when you want to buy....what really matters is customer service after you've paid. This is where Greg is exceptional. I had an issue with mine and Greg was all over it making everything completely right. No hassles about showing the issue, no hassles at all....just great service!

I've really loved flying the Cloud, now that I know how solid Greg is about standing behind his product I know I'll be back for the rest of the quiver I've been dreaming about and will be comfortable in saying that Greg is as good as it gets in customer support. Its more like a brotherhood than customer/company type relationship. Very unique and appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:00 am 
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I've had the BRM 9 vesion 2 out quite a few times. Really nice and well made kite. Great for wave riding..killer pull, very stable has decent range, turns fast and killer drift. I ride in a notoriously gusty spot and the kite handles.

I am not sure if I agree when I hear it is not for everyone...that is clearly true for any kite..but not more so for the strutless kites I have tried.

I think the second version of the BRM and the Trip has improved the kite in many ways. One of the things I enjoy is that strutless kites work around you...not you around the kite. By that I mean if a gust hits the kites tend to move around in the window and not not pull you off your line.

Most of it is the stability of the kite.

I self launch and self land these kites, and I have not had problems relaunching from water.

My opinion: Strutless kites are doing exceedingly well and improving.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:47 pm 
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davesails7 wrote:
ronnie wrote:
Greg's explanation of why he thinks the Cloud drifts so well.


I can see the characteristics described in the video being a benefit for wave riding, but when I tried the cloud out in flat water, this is exactly what I didn't like about the kite. When trying to stay upwind in very light wind on most kites, you hit a gust, you let the bar out a bit, the kite moves forward in the window. This pulls you upwind and you can take advantage of the gust.

With the cloud, you let the bar out in the gust and it does the opposite. It falls back in the window, just as shown in the video. In the video, he says the idea is for the canopyt to go "flat" when you let out the bar, but it actually goes "FLAP", not "flat" :D That's great for riding downwind in the surf, but if you want the ultimate lightwind kite for staying up wind, I don't think strutless is the best option.

I don't think the no strut concept is as much of a benefit as it first seems. The weight of the kite is low, but so is the projected area/total area. The kite can't be flat or have a high aspect ratio in order to keep the canopy shape without struts. The cloud is probably the lightest 17m, but it has much less projected area than a typical 17m. I'd be interested to see how it compares to other kites in weight/projected area.

My 18m with 7 struts stays in the air in less wind than I can get going on my full size raceboard. Maybe a strutless kite would stay in the air in even less wind, but it wouldn't add to my low end because it wouldn't have any more power (lower projected area) and it wouldn't go upwind nearly as well.

Like every aspect of the design, going strutless is a tradeoff with benefits and downsides.


You might need to put some more time on it ;-)

I tested the 17, 14 BRM and 12 Trip in really light winds..and it worked well.

I think the cloud needs a lot less bar throw to work optimally. This kite moves forward in the window without you sheeting out. When I was out a guy on a foil struggled to stay upwind. I don't know his level but no other kites were out and the foil ended up in the water. The cloud dipped too, but got relaunched a lot faster than the foil.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:10 pm 
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I am a very happy C1 owner, sizes 5, 6, 8, 10. I've been on them a little over a year. I've flown kites with anywhere from 8 to 0 struts.

The characteristics of the Cloud I love are the incredibly fast turning, being able to downsize because they are more powerful, the drift, the ability of the kite to recover when you ride at it faster than the wind and the on/off sheeting characteristic. Packing up small is nice, but was not a feature that swayed me either way. The only thing that I don't really like is that it is harder to self land because it doesn't sit on the beach without being weighed down. For me the benefits over other kites I have flown are so huge that I am very happy to accept that.

I can't speak for other strutless kites, but I think the BRM Cloud is a big success. BRM is far from being just another "me too" kite company. I really hope Greg continues to develop the brand and in particular the Cloud.

Addressing a few things:

Quote:
I think the cloud needs a lot less bar throw to work optimally.

I agree, but the phrasing is misleading. The Cloud needs a lot less bar input to work optimally - i.e. you should move the bar less than you would with other kites. But depending on your riding style, the kite can benefit a lot from large bar throw. Since switching to the Clouds, I modified mine to have almost 3ft of bar throw and I really love it. No more being pulled harder than I want in turns.

I don't really get the hating on the strutless design you see on these threads. If you don't like the idea or it doesn't work for you, move on and stop ranting - it's stupid. For some riding styles, it can work incredibly well. For mine, the Cloud works much better than anything else I've tried. For some people they'll try a Vegas or something else and that will be a magic kite for them and the way they ride. The way I see it, the Cloud is another option for riders. It's not for everyone, but then no kite out there is.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:57 pm 
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cleepa wrote:
I am a very happy C1 owner, sizes 5, 6, 8, 10. I've been on them a little over a year. I've flown kites with anywhere from 8 to 0 struts.

The characteristics of the Cloud I love are the incredibly fast turning, being able to downsize because they are more powerful, the drift, the ability of the kite to recover when you ride at it faster than the wind and the on/off sheeting characteristic. Packing up small is nice, but was not a feature that swayed me either way. The only thing that I don't really like is that it is harder to self land because it doesn't sit on the beach without being weighed down. For me the benefits over other kites I have flown are so huge that I am very happy to accept that.

I can't speak for other strutless kites, but I think the BRM Cloud is a big success. BRM is far from being just another "me too" kite company. I really hope Greg continues to develop the brand and in particular the Cloud.

Addressing a few things:

Quote:
I think the cloud needs a lot less bar throw to work optimally.

I agree, but the phrasing is misleading. The Cloud needs a lot less bar input to work optimally - i.e. you should move the bar less than you would with other kites. But depending on your riding style, the kite can benefit a lot from large bar throw. Since switching to the Clouds, I modified mine to have almost 3ft of bar throw and I really love it. No more being pulled harder than I want in turns.

I don't really get the hating on the strutless design you see on these threads. If you don't like the idea or it doesn't work for you, move on and stop ranting - it's stupid. For some riding styles, it can work incredibly well. For mine, the Cloud works much better than anything else I've tried. For some people they'll try a Vegas or something else and that will be a magic kite for them and the way they ride. The way I see it, the Cloud is another option for riders. It's not for everyone, but then no kite out there is.



I think there are only 1 or 2 guys that have an agenda against strutless kites that will pop up every 6th comment with the same crying foul comments. The truth is, unless you have a trust fund or are a top rider, you can afford maybe a kite or two a year? if you're really lucky. So most people have a very small point of view of the massive range of kites and equipment available. So of course most people are going to tout what they know, and are ignorant to the dozen other brands that offer a similar product. Take it with a grain of salt is what I'm saying.

I have a Cloud 14.5 which I got to save my lightwind days and to foil with. After a couple of mistakes in getting water on the canopy, or other mistakes, you learn not to make that mistake anymore and you don't have as many relaunching debacles. I have wondered if a batten or battens to help keep the center portion of the canopy up would be a good idea and would help the water on the canopy issue.
When you are riding in really marginal winds, I have noticed what a difference having a dry kite vs. a kite that has hit the water vs. a kite that has been in the water for a time and the canopy has gotten fully wet can have on your relaunch chances. Some lightwind days I give myself a 1 or 2 drop limit until I call it quits because I know the kite is too heavy to relaunch again until it is totally dry. Then, if I have time, I take it onto the beach, find the hottest dryest patch of sand I can, and cover everything. Shake it all off, cover it again with more dry sand. repeat until no more sand will stick to the kite, and you have a dry kite ready to go again. Trying to relaunch a wet kite with sand sticking to it? Forget it unless you have some strong wind.

I like the quick set up and pack down. I like how it turns so fast, even when the wind is so light that the kite is barely hanging in the air. I still don't really feel like it's a jumping kite, (with a TT). Does anyone have any tips in that dept?

I did get to try a 10m Trip on my foil and that was a really fun kite. I had been riding my 14.5 and had been really powered up, maybe overpowered all day. Going to that 10m I really felt like I could lean into it and comfortably work both kite and foil. So maybe it was a great kite, maybe it was just the right size for the conditions, maybe both.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:04 am 
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10m prototype from Griffin Kites.

Designer's Youtube comment:-

Published on 22 Jul 2014
10m no Strut kite ( the 3 black stripes are just dacron stripes no struts on the kite ) First proto went awesomly, very flap free in normal use and kite loops, flapped when de powered in 26 knots on the 10m but most any other kite would do the same. Excellent light wind and strong wind range, great jumping and float and loops. First sample kite was perfect, next proto I will remove the dacron stripes because they look like struts. Re launches easily, handles gusts excellently. A great all round do everything kite, Want to test it out in the waves next.10m was kitable in 13,14 to 26 knots which is a large wind range on a 5ft3 surfboard 88kg. This kite has alot of potential, I can now understand the idea of a 1 kite travel kite. I will make a 10m and 12m. next proto 12m is under way already



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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:38 am 
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Check out the video i posted with the liquid force solo. I dont like strutless kites (yet) because of the relaunch issue when thr canopy gets wet. I used the Airush Zero lasst year a bunch and found the range was super small...10-12 it was perfect. If it was over that it just pulled like a truck. The Cloud leading edge buckles when overpowered. A friend has a quiver and complaines about it. I started to ride the Liquid Force solo because i am a dealer for Liquid Force so i figured i would try the 12m. After about 6 hours in multiple sessions from super light wind to over head waves i just ordered a 6.5,9and 15.5. I like them a lot!! It is not a big jumping kite, however it does jump ok, and un-hooks so so. It really excels in the waves and has a huge amount of drift. My other surf kite is a Reo and the Solo drifts great if not dare i say better?!?! It does a little flaping but you get used to and and im certain that it does not affect the performance. It does not flAp anymore then the 2014 Bandit... The center strut is thin, noticibly thinner then a regular 12. And when its down for the count,the center strut gives it enough canopy lift to get air in there for a great and fairly easy relaunch. The self launch and land is good too. Another are the kite excels is light wind. Im super pumped to try the 9m in 16+mph, and at 190lbs that would be crazy. The 12m is great in an honest 12+Mph but once it hits the 18+ mark it starts to get real over powered, like not fun i want to put this thing down type of over powered. Usually i cant ride a 9 unless its no lighter then 20 so im hopeful. If anyone is in the NJ area get ahold of me to try one... http://youtu.be/GXciQDrjwQQ

Ps. Just wait till you see the LF 2015 bar...its going to change the industry standard.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:13 pm 
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IanNJ wrote:

Ps. Just wait till you see the LF 2015 bar...its going to change the industry standard.


Can't wait... when do we get to see it?

Lets put the description and pictures here:

viewtopic.php?t=2385697&p=850629


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