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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:11 am 
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Dont get me wrong I don't mean to cast dispersions on this kite as I have never flown one, plus their seems to be some stoked crew on it.

Just questioning the point made above, fluttering when depowered cannot be sold as a positive no matter how you spin it. But of course this can be mitigated somewhat once you learn the characteristics of the foil. But to try and make out like its a great thing to teach people how to trim is, well it's absurd.


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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:24 pm 
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Westozzy wrote:
Just questioning the point made above, fluttering when depowered cannot be sold as a positive no matter how you spin it. But of course this can be mitigated somewhat once you learn the characteristics of the foil. But to try and make out like its a great thing to teach people how to trim is, well it's absurd.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
I guess the silliest BS on kiteforum so far this year, where are you alexrider for Open competition :?:
People who has common sense and not Pimps wouldn't post this kind of BS about the flutter :evil: :naughty:

A


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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:59 pm 
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First, westozzy since you admit you have zero knowledge of what you speak, having never flown the kite you are criticizing, you should consider flying one before throwing more critical comments to the wall to see what sticks.

Nothing I wrote is absurd.
But your writing here makes it seem that you may not really be thinking what you are reading.
Sorry to be blunt.
I simply pointed out the obvious.
Everyone knows, in sailing, windsurfing, etc., beginners start with "soft" sails that luff easily, because they are easy to trim -it is obvious when they are luffing.
Many of these sails have no battens, or short battens.
Everyone who learns to sail learns how to trim a sail, how to play the sheets, how to watch the luff of the sail for wrinkles and then trim in slightly, how to trim out slightly to make sure the sail is sheeted correctly, etc. This is a feedback loop good small boat sailors run through constantly.
Trimming is a vital skill to sailing fast.
It is actually just as important to kiting well, it is just not so obvious.
Struts and higher canopy tensions, like full battens, can make it hard to tell, especially for beginners and intermediates, what the state of trim is, because luffing is not prominent, and sometimes almost invisible. The narrower sailing angles of kiting, wind window effects and bridle effects also can hide the state of trim. To a degrees, they do make it less critical to riding, but not to riding well. A wing that is trimmed well will always be faster.

Seeing and feeling the luffing just makes it more obvious.
That could help people think about what they are doing, and see when they are doing it wrong, before they stall and sink or go after a new kite thinking their kite has no power or won't get upwind. It really could help them learn.
That is the point I made.
It is factual. I'll stand by it.


Last edited by BWD on Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:15 pm 
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Great review guys. There's not that many people out there that have flown this many different light wind kites this season over as many days as you have.

I appreciate all the time you have put into the reviews that you have done so far and will take them for what they are worth when looking at my next light wind kites.

Regarding some of the responses in this post, the other Avg Joe Reviews, and Kiteforum in general......It's funny\sad how when I am at the beach and when I travel, nearly every kiter I meet is really cool and respectful. Then we get into these forums and we have no problem being disrespectful to one another.


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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:21 pm 
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BWD wrote:
This is a feedback loop good small boat sailors run through constantly.
Trimming is a vital skill to sailing fast.


As a life long racing sailor and having flown both the 17m and 12m C2s I agree with your observations completely. As my previous post about the 12m C2 stated - trimming these kites is closer to trimming a sail than any other kite I've flown. The 12m was intuitive to me for this reason. If I had unlimited funds I would by the 12m C2. Not sure about the 17m as I already have a low wind star.

One of the Joes,

Randy


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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:20 pm 
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I don't think there is any advantage for a luffing sail. There are plenty other ways to trim a kite. More support = a more efficient sail that's like physics or something. But I love these clouds, the 17 especially so nice to pack down small so you always can take it and get out on the water even if the wind doesn't put out. A nice alternative to a flysurfer.


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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:36 pm 
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edt wrote:
I don't think there is any advantage for a luffing sail. There are plenty other ways to trim a kite. More support = a more efficient sail that's like physics or something. But I love these clouds, the 17 especially so nice to pack down small so you always can take it and get out on the water even if the wind doesn't put out. A nice alternative to a flysurfer.


I'm pretty certain that all kites actually luff as their angle of attack increases on the wind (we ease the bar out all the way), but strutted kites don't flutter (make noise) the way a strut-less kite does.

I agree completely that luffing sails aren't trimmed sails...hence not good. I think the point being made relates to being able to realize what is happening with the canopy. But with all that, it doesn't relate to how it performs other than - no kite performs well when luffing (struts or no struts).


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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:41 pm 
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edt wrote:
I don't think there is any advantage for a luffing sail. There are plenty other ways to trim a kite. More support = a more efficient sail that's like physics or something. But I love these clouds, the 17 especially so nice to pack down small so you always can take it and get out on the water even if the wind doesn't put out. A nice alternative to a flysurfer.



Exactly. And BWD I am indeed thinking about what I read and what you wrote. And I stand by what I said. I needn't ride it to counter your claim. I have ridden more than enough kites to understand the point you are making...and I will hold you accountable to it as you will mine. Every wing has it's pros and cons, indeed there is no perfect wing that I've come across but to paint a picture that the luffing of this kite is a good thing and almost that a beginner and intermediate would be better off not having a canopy with high tension, battens etc etc and will teach you to trim better....well it might, but that to me is not a Positive Aspect Of this wing. It is one of the cons that allows the pros this kite has to exist. It's like saying this kite sits really deep in the window and keeps pulling me downwind but it would teach beginners really how to edge correctly to stay upwind...A crucial skill of kiting.

How about a kite that isn't so sensitive to luffing so the beginner can concentrate on other aspects of learning to use the wing. An argument can be made either way.

You love your clouds awesome but don't sell a negative aspect of this wing as a positive, becuase it is not.


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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:43 am 
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I think it's been spelled out pretty clearly that the Cloud hasn't been recommended for a beginner, and reading BWD's comments I don't really interpret it as him trying to sell luffing as a benefit, more like looking at the glass as half full.


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 Post subject: Re: Average Joe Kite Review - Cloud C2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:56 am 
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Funny I was going to use the same expression. I can't deny that this kite it seems will indeed force you to learn to trim correctly and could very well give you a closer experience to true sailing.

Personally I'd rather concentrate on what's happening underneath the wing with my body and board, not the kite.

Been experimenting quite a bit with low and high Y setups lately and indeed trimming right, especially when unhooking is important no doubt.

But you don't need a cloud to teach you this, that's for sure.

You want a cloud for other reasons, lightweight, drift, low end per kite size, small pack down size for traveling, quick to pump up for those guys that are time poor, etc etc

I would not putting it's sensitivity to fluttering given a set bar throw on my list of priorities for kite, nor would I say it's a great thing as it will teach you to trim correctly.

That's topping the glass right up!! :D


Personally if I wanted to continually find the sweet spot re trimming and bar throw, Indeed closer to true sailing I'd choose a high aspect foil on a race board, over a cloud!!.then you will really hone these skills.


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