*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 136 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 14  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:33 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:53 pm
Posts: 877
Here is a series of pictures, showing a modification to the standard Wichard swivel shackle. The 3/4 inch thin-walled PVC, with a slice of one inch PVC glued onto it, acts like a push-away "mushroom" release, and seems to work very well, in a number of ways. It is easy to snap the shackle shut using only one hand, and the shackle slides OK on the rope. The PVC part does not interfere with anything and slides along the rope without bumping into anything that might push on it and make it release. The swivel of the shackle works without interference, when untwisting lines, and can be easiy reached to manualy rotate the swivel. The spring in the shackle is just the right strength to keep the shackle locked, and gives adequate resistance, when the released is pushed. The 3/4 inch PVC pipe slides easily, and the notches keep it aligned properly. It is easy to rinse off, as the water flows through the hardware and takes the sand with it.

Of course, the goal of this thread is not to present this tinkered up device as a finished product to be used, but the goal is to show that a device designed along these lines might be a marketable addition to our activity and might be a useful substitute for a chicken loop and hook arrangement for a sizable group of kiters.

Until such a device is properly designed and tested, and offered for sale... many of us will have to go on "tinkering" with "off-the-shelf" hardware, hoping to come up with some good ideas, and demonstrate to the industry, the feasability of such a design.

Note the closeness of the spreader bar to the kite bar, when the kitebar is pulled all the way in, giving an easy-to-reach long "throw", helpful to short-armed kiters, or to kiters with "long throw" kites. If a ring were fastened to the center of the spreader bar, the "throw" could be extended even further.


Attachments:
wichard release 1.jpg
wichard release 1.jpg [ 165.21 KIB | Viewed 566 times ]
wichard release 2.jpg
wichard release 2.jpg [ 220.82 KIB | Viewed 566 times ]
wichard release 3.jpg
wichard release 3.jpg [ 110.42 KIB | Viewed 566 times ]
wichard release 4.jpg
wichard release 4.jpg [ 158.1 KIB | Viewed 566 times ]
wichard release 5.jpg
wichard release 5.jpg [ 184.07 KIB | Viewed 566 times ]
wichard release 6.jpg
wichard release 6.jpg [ 159.14 KIB | Viewed 566 times ]
Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:16 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:48 pm
Posts: 356
Tom,

Interesting discussion. I hope it continues

I like the simplicity of your solution.

A couple of thoughts

1. If this set up allows the bar to be closer to the rider, I am wondering if that would also facilitate removing the depower system . My bar has 26 inches of throw. The depower adds a 6 inch adjustment range. Why not just eliminate the depower and change the throw to 32 inches if the rider can reach and use all 32 inches? If I can access a wider range of throw, why do I need a depower system? I know this is a bit OT, but I thought it is worth considering as an additional benefit.

2. It is personal preference, but my ideal gear set up is one bar per a kite. In my opinion, one of the primary benefits to eliminating the CL is reducing the cost of a bar. With this in mind, I think the best QR solution is one that is not attached to the bar. Maybe a double ended snap hook.? Your same QR setup, but leaving the hook on the slider line. The second hook would replace the eye on your snap shackle. This hook would hook into a ring below the bar at the beginning of a session. This way you only need one QR for all of your bars instead one for each bar. This will greatly reduce the cost of a bar and take complexity out of bar construction.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:51 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 2909
SalmonSlayer wrote:
Tom,

Interesting discussion. I hope it continues

I like the simplicity of your solution.

A couple of thoughts

1. If this set up allows the bar to be closer to the rider, I am wondering if that would also facilitate removing the depower system . My bar has 26 inches of throw. The depower adds a 6 inch adjustment range. Why not just eliminate the depower and change the throw to 32 inches if the rider can reach and use all 32 inches? If I can access a wider range of throw, why do I need a depower system? I know this is a bit OT, but I thought it is worth considering as an additional benefit.

2. It is personal preference, but my ideal gear set up is one bar per a kite. In my opinion, one of the primary benefits to eliminating the CL is reducing the cost of a bar. With this in mind, I think the best QR solution is one that is not attached to the bar. Maybe a double ended snap hook.? Your same QR setup, but leaving the hook on the slider line. The second hook would replace the eye on your snap shackle. This hook would hook into a ring below the bar at the beginning of a session. This way you only need one QR for all of your bars instead one for each bar. This will greatly reduce the cost of a bar and take complexity out of bar construction.


Nice bit of work there Tom. It shows a familiar way to release using the standard Wichard. Wichard could redesign the hinge to make it more suitable for sliding along a rope, so there would be no need for the ring I fitted to reduce wear as in the photo on page two.

The thing missing is a through the swivel flagging line option.

Salmonslayer,
Boardriding Maui is bringing out a new control bar next month and from what I read I think there will be a long throw and no adjustment of the flying line lengths on-the fly. The Cloud kite uses a short distance bar throw to cover the distance between perfectly sheeted and backstalling. Anything beyond that and you have to either work the kite in lighter wind or push the bar out until the wind drops back into the good range for the kite size.

It will be interesting to see if line trimming during a session becomes less and less common.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:57 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:49 am
Posts: 374
SalmonSlayer wrote:
Tom,

Interesting discussion. I hope it continues

I like the simplicity of your solution.

A couple of thoughts

1. If this set up allows the bar to be closer to the rider, I am wondering if that would also facilitate removing the depower system . My bar has 26 inches of throw. The depower adds a 6 inch adjustment range. Why not just eliminate the depower and change the throw to 32 inches if the rider can reach and use all 32 inches? If I can access a wider range of throw, why do I need a depower system? I know this is a bit OT, but I thought it is worth considering as an additional benefit.

2. It is personal preference, but my ideal gear set up is one bar per a kite. In my opinion, one of the primary benefits to eliminating the CL is reducing the cost of a bar. With this in mind, I think the best QR solution is one that is not attached to the bar. Maybe a double ended snap hook.? Your same QR setup, but leaving the hook on the slider line. The second hook would replace the eye on your snap shackle. This hook would hook into a ring below the bar at the beginning of a session. This way you only need one QR for all of your bars instead one for each bar. This will greatly reduce the cost of a bar and take complexity out of bar construction.



agree with the QR or whatever type on the harness as others have said, seems safer and cheaper.
Like the ideas a lot with all the brainstorming.
as for the trim cleat/strap, no matter how much depower i have i would still like a trim option to keep the bar at a comfortable distance and keep the body position relaxed and powerful. it is a trim strap after all, not really a depower strap. i use it for different reasons, i guess.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:11 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:48 pm
Posts: 356
knotwindy wrote:
as for the trim cleat/strap, no matter how much depower i have i would still like a trim option to keep the bar at a comfortable distance and keep the body position relaxed and powerful. it is a trim strap after all, not really a depower strap. i use it for different reasons, i guess.


I agree with the value of a trim option with current bar setups. I adjust my trim depending on the wind so the 26 inches of throw I have is comfortably available to me.

My point was that bringing the bar closer to my waist with shorter length hardware between the bar and harness may allow a rider to access 32 inches (26 of throw + 6 inches of trim) of throw as comfortably as I have been able to use 26 inches of throw now. If this is a byproduct of a set up similar to what Tom has introduced, you could effectively eliminate the trim option with no loss of performance and comfort. Maybe I am missing something obvious.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:53 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:27 am
Posts: 214
Location: Rome
In 2012 I worked on a FlexiFoil control bar to make it perfect for wave riding.
The QR was made using the original CL QR handle mounted on a custom pulley and I also placed a clam cleat under the bar.
The main goal was to have a trim system in order to have the required power in a custom position. The solution is a under the bar stopper ball. Why?

The bar should not be too close to your body nor too far, the trim ball allows to choose the best position no matter if you have long ot short arms. When you surf you should be able to hang on the bar without compromising the kite fly and you move up the stopperball, when you jump or go upwind you need the maximum power and you can move down the stopperball.
The stopperball is made using a plastic ball with two additional holes for the power line, the original central hole is used for the safety leash attached to 1 front line.


Attachments:
JAY QR Sliding.jpg
JAY QR Sliding.jpg [ 273.93 KIB | Viewed 254 times ]
stopperball.jpg
stopperball.jpg [ 23.64 KIB | Viewed 254 times ]
JAY Wave bar.jpg
JAY Wave bar.jpg [ 331.85 KIB | Viewed 254 times ]
Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:10 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:48 pm
Posts: 356
jaystore wrote:
The bar should not be too close to your body nor too far, the trim ball allows to choose the best position .....


Too far would be somewhere short of out of reach for the rider.

Did you ever determine what was typically too close for comfortable operation? I am assuming this would need to be measured at a position where a waist harness is not sliding up a riders torso or the rider is using a seat harness. It seems to me, determining how close is too close for the average rider would need to be a consideration in a new CL/QR design.

BTW... I love my Dynabar


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:25 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:53 pm
Posts: 877
knotwindy wrote:

... it is a trim strap after all, not really a depower strap. i use it for different reasons, i guess.


...................

Good point concerning the convenience of "zeroing in the sweet spot", by using the trim strap.

There is an "adjustment" solution, and the principle behind the solution was demonstrated about 3 years ago, by Ludo Zeeko. Here is a picture, posted at the time, in the following KF thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2374213

...and this picture shows the basic components of the "trim" system, which are located above the bar, at the "Y" of the two front lines. When this system is used to lengthen and shorten the overall length of the dual "power line", then, there is no need for any kind of "cleat" or traditional power line adjuster.

I have been using this "Zeeko" depower/trim system ever since it was presented by Zeeko, in 2012, and even though I originally added the "Prussic Ball" as described in the thread...I have since done away with this addition, and now just reach up above the bar and grab one rope or the other to power or depower the system. The simplified technique I use is to first identify which of the two power lines I want to pull on, and then, glide the board toward the kite to release tension on the power lines, as I pull on the line. It takes a little bit of practice, but is not hard to do... the action is just like a kiter usually has to do in order to adjust the power line, with the conventional use of a toothed cleat.

The combination of this "Zeeko" style trim system along with the use of a small release shackle gives the rider a very "clean" bar without the clutter of a cleat (above or below the bar), and without the bulk of a chicken loop, and without the hazard of a spreader bar hook, and as a bonus, it gives the rider an extraordinarily long "throw", located at a very convenient distance from the kiter. I would like to see this type of a control system perfected to eliminate any flaws, and made available to the large group of kiters who do not perform unhooked riding.

Here is something else to think about: Even though most kiters have long enough arms to deal with the arguably "short throw" available conventional kite systems, wouldn't it be nice if that extra 6 inches of throw, located close to the kiter's abdomen, which is presently not being used... could be made of use to "back-stall-DRIFT" a kite... kind of like adding lower gears to a mountain bike. Maybe we can pull some kite designers into the discussion... ask them: "what could you guys do with an extra 6 inches of "throw" to improve basic kite performance?"


Attachments:
zeeko style power line adj..jpg
zeeko style power line adj..jpg [ 78.79 KIB | Viewed 175 times ]
Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:42 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:53 pm
Posts: 877
SalmonSlayer wrote:

This way you only need one QR for all of your bars instead one for each bar. This will greatly reduce the cost of a bar and take complexity out of bar construction.


.........

That is a really good point, and I wish that I could figure out a way to incorporate a "push-away" release mushroom sleave... with a shackle. The "push-away" action has become the industry standard. So, if I reverse the shackle and allow the shackle to stay with the spreader bar, then the release action would be the old (rejected by the industry) "pull" release.

Having a "pull" release may not be a big deal, and I will probably reverse the shackle, so that it will slide on the rope of the bar I use more easily, and as an additional plus, in that location, probably the shackle will not wear out as soon, since it will not be dragged around in the sand as much... plus, at the price of these shackles, there would be less chance of it getting lost, if my kite blows away. Of course, I might leave my harness at the beach, by accident...


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:31 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 2909
[quote="tomatkins]

That is a really good point, and I wish that I could figure out a way to incorporate a "push-away" release mushroom sleave... with a shackle. The "push-away" action has become the industry standard. So, if I reverse the shackle and allow the shackle to stay with the spreader bar, then the release action would be the old (rejected by the industry) "pull" release.

[/quote]

The way to do it would be to replace the bolt that is in your current system with 2 bars hinged at a point halfway between the sides of the spring. They would be parallel before you pushed, then would form an X and push the spring to release the shackle.
It would be difficult to assemble, but possible.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 136 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 14  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], deniska, Google [Bot], tadaska and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group