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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:36 pm 
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tomatkins wrote:
Here is a series of pictures, showing a modification to the standard Wichard swivel shackle. The 3/4 inch thin-walled PVC, with a slice of one inch PVC glued onto it, acts like a push-away "mushroom" release, and seems to work very well, in a number of ways. It is easy to snap the shackle shut using only one hand, and the shackle slides OK on the rope. The PVC part does not interfere with anything and slides along the rope without bumping into anything that might push on it and make it release. The swivel of the shackle works without interference, when untwisting lines, and can be easiy reached to manualy rotate the swivel. The spring in the shackle is just the right strength to keep the shackle locked, and gives adequate resistance, when the released is pushed. The 3/4 inch PVC pipe slides easily, and the notches keep it aligned properly. It is easy to rinse off, as the water flows through the hardware and takes the sand with it.

Of course, the goal of this thread is not to present this tinkered up device as a finished product to be used, but the goal is to show that a device designed along these lines might be a marketable addition to our activity and might be a useful substitute for a chicken loop and hook arrangement for a sizable group of kiters.

Until such a device is properly designed and tested, and offered for sale... many of us will have to go on "tinkering" with "off-the-shelf" hardware, hoping to come up with some good ideas, and demonstrate to the industry, the feasability of such a design.

Note the closeness of the spreader bar to the kite bar, when the kitebar is pulled all the way in, giving an easy-to-reach long "throw", helpful to short-armed kiters, or to kiters with "long throw" kites. If a ring were fastened to the center of the spreader bar, the "throw" could be extended even further.


I need to dig-up my Wichard , to measure the distance, but
what size bolt did you use that activates the spring, and replaces the stock pull cord ?

I'm going to build that devise ; looks better than just using the open shackle, (like i did)
because now Ya don't need to worry about where the release handle is.
Actually, if
it was a Pull system ; it could be mounted permanently to my Dynabar V-7 , and
(i'll probably do exactly that) .
Doing it that way, now i got a secondary release from the stock V-7 spreader-bar ,
(i use the Cord, Not the solid bar that screws in the spreader pad).

The V-7 spreader bar cord, will fit right into the base
of the Wichard-shackle, and it's smooth enough to not wear-out the cord !!
I can figure a way to put the V-7 pulley, back on ----later ? The pulley gives
really smooth action.

What to do with the extra travel ; all my balance is from sheeting, because
i don't have real feet, and i already tested this type system, and it works well
for me.

Thanks for the Great idea ; when Ya come up with a better one, i'll try it !!!

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:18 pm 
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I used the wichard in the past but over the recent few years have generally preferred the brass panic snap (floating on a rope without a spreader bar). Easy and pretty basic, and can be opened and closed wih one hand. Heavier than a wichard and not as nice looking but very very simple and inexpensive. Never had it open accidentally and never had it fail to open immediately when desired.

As with shackles, there are many kinds of panic snaps and most of them don't fulfill my safety requirements for kiting. But the one pictured has been excellent.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:39 pm 
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loco4viento wrote:
...

As with shackles, there are many kinds of panic snaps and most of them don't fulfill my safety requirements for kiting. But the one pictured has been excellent.


The release on that one, is the brass oval looking object, with the arrow
on it ?
If so, then it could be wrapped with a leather and coated with epoxy
to make it bigger.

Got a link to it please ; that is Exactly the design i want, and looks
like it's already bin made !!

SS would be a bit lighter maybe ?

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:15 pm 
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Hi Bille,

Here is one in Canada. http://www.lacordee.com/en/wintersports ... anic-biner

I bought mine from a horse tack store in Texas for about ten bucks.
The one pictured is great. I only go with brass. The nickel plated ones corrode quickly. I would only get one that looks like the one in the picture (or the one I posted) or you might end up buying some with friction issues on the release.

Pull in the direction of the arrow and it releases. Works well even with gloves on. I really love the simplicity, reliability and the fact that you can find them for about 6-12 bucks.

Later when I have time I will try to find you a better link.

John


Last edited by loco4viento on Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:11 pm 
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loco4viento wrote:
Hi Bille,

Here is one in Canada. I bought mine from a horse tack store in Texas ...
...

John


There's two horse tack store in Las Vegas ; i'll check if they can order
one for me when i return from my HG trip next week,
(i'll take a picture of yours & show them).

Thanks for the info : Bille
And kite Safe !


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:49 pm 
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At this rate some of you with the shackles will
be re-inventing the wheel!!!

Soft eyes can catch when they are open and if you dig far enough back you will see the results from a hard eye wearing a groove preventing release.

so..nothing new here to fix what aint broke. Core and their twist is just plain ridiculous...another case for the sake of.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:38 am 
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Locoforviento,

Thanks for presenting the "panic snap" example. Maybe some of the unique features can be incorporated into the kiteboard specific design of the "kite panic snap". I like the stationary double arm with the release arm in the center design. I did a search and could only find the "twist" release type in stainless steel. I found many different designs of this type of "panic snap" and all the pieces of hardware were reasonably priced.

If this specialized type of "horse" hardware can be manufactured and sold for less than ten dollars, then it would seem that a slightly more sophisticated stainless steel device could be produced for our activity, and sold at a reasonable price. Let's hope so. Probably all of these designs started out in a "blacksmith" or "machine" or "metal working" shop. Our specialty device will probably start out in CAD or Stereolithography, and the prototype will be built up or "printed" with layers of plastic.

I wonder what other disciplines besides sail boating, horse leading, and kiteboarding need connection hardware that can be released under force or during "panic"? How about "logging" or "farming"? Maybe we can get design ideas from devices other than panic snaps and release shackles. Maybe someday these other activities will look to our activity of kiteboarding for ideas that would improve THEIR equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:01 pm 
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Interesting device Tom but why not use it on the spreader bar side instead ? That way you would get a "push to release" (if I understand it correctly, your device would then be mounted in the opposite direction, ie push instead of pull).

In such case everything on the bar side (below the bar) could be removed and you could even make an attachment point on the swiveling part of the wichard for the flagging line. Here a simple pintype QR could be used.

I have made a quick sketch of the setup


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File comment: Sketch of shackle setup with shackle on spreader bar side
Shackle setup.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:24 pm 
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silversurfer_no wrote:
Interesting device Tom but why not use it on the spreader bar side instead ? That way you would get a "push to release" (if I understand it correctly, your device would then be mounted in the opposite direction, ie push instead of pull).

In such case everything on the bar side (below the bar) could be removed and you could even make an attachment point on the swiveling part of the wichard for the flagging line. Here a simple pintype QR could be used.

I have made a quick sketch of the setup


what dont you understand...your steel ring is a hard eye. It will wear a groove in the shackle and not release even when open.

What you have shown there is what RRD Z types came as standard with over 10 years ago!!!!

Nice new wheel you have there!!!

About the only release type that cannot jam seize etc. and is proven in all industries is a "pelican" type release. Some leashes are fitted with them and many chicken loops are designed on that principle.

You have a very long way to go to better it.


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 Post subject: Re: Chicken Loop Bye Bye?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:58 pm 
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flyingweasel wrote:

what dont you understand...your steel ring is a hard eye. It will wear a groove in the shackle and not release even when open.

What you have shown there is what RRD Z types came as standard with over 10 years ago!!!!

Nice new wheel you have there!!!

About the only release type that cannot jam seize etc. and is proven in all industries is a "pelican" type release. Some leashes are fitted with them and many chicken loops are designed on that principle.

You have a very long way to go to better it.


You have mentioned twice that this is just reinventing the wheel.

What I see trying to be accomplished here is finding a design that rethinks the QR. It seems to me that you would first work on the basic design with whatever materials are available. Then you would discuss the which materials would be best suited for the "final" design. If a steel ring would create a wear point than maybe adding a rubber tube around it like current CLs would be a viable solution to resolve that issue.

I dont see this subject as reinventing the wheel at all. If the same or similar setup was tried before then it is time to reconsider the concept. Foil boards came out quite a while ago and then left the conversation. Now foil boards are back and have put formula race boards in storage along with the windsurfing gear.

I see a new and improved QR as being discussed here as accomplishing 3 things

1. Simplification
2. Cost reduction
3. Improved rider experience. Especially shorter armed riders

This has been a great conversation. 20 years ago, who would have thought we could be sharing ideas internationally with complete strangers that have a common interest.

SalmonSlayer wrote:
2. It is personal preference, but my ideal gear set up is one bar per a kite. In my opinion, one of the primary benefits to eliminating the CL is reducing the cost of a bar. With this in mind, I think the best QR solution is one that is not attached to the bar. Maybe a double ended snap hook.? Your same QR setup, but leaving the hook on the slider line. The second hook would replace the eye on your snap shackle. This hook would hook into a ring below the bar at the beginning of a session. This way you only need one QR for all of your bars instead one for each bar. This will greatly reduce the cost of a bar and take complexity out of bar construction.


I set up a bar with 32 inches of throw this weekend. I used a snap shackle and no QR below the bar. I just used a metal ring. It worked well with the kite at 12 o'clock and the bar was near my face, but as soon as a leaned back and the kite lines were at a right angle from my body, the bar fully depowered was out of reach. To many of you this was an obvious outcome. Apparently, I had to learn by doing. I still have not completely let go of eliminating the trim option from a bar, but doing so now means reducing wind condition range of use. I wont mention it again :-?


Last edited by SalmonSlayer on Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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