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 Post subject: 2015 Rebel vs Juice vs Dyno Monsters
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:46 pm 
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I have a bunch of people asking me about the Larger 2015 Dyno, Juice and Rebel. I have spoken with the designer Ken Winner and got some great feedback. If you aren't a reader here it is broken down in my brief translation.

Dyno - Race grunt.
Juice - Grunt freestyle. (The fastest of the 3)
Rebel - Slow kite with importance on hang time and slide style (Toby). Best on the top end.

Now more broken down from Ken:

The Juice 18 is easy to turn and jumps pretty well when not very powered. It's good on twin-tip, wave board, or hydrofoil.

The Dyno 18 is just for racing and foiling. The Juice and Dyno have about the same weight, so both fly pretty well in marginal wind.

The Rebel 18 is for air style, so it handles being overpowered really well. The Rebel jumps well when overpowered however it turns slower, so an airstyler doesn't get hammered by the kite being out of position in the middle of a trick. The Rebel is heavier, so it's not as good for marginal wind compared to the other two.

For all of you out there who want all of the info, this is a more thorough writeup from Ken on the Juice:

There are at least three main types of big kites:

-There are the big race kites, which are fast and have big wind range but aren't generally the best for handling or jumping. These kites need at least five struts and need to be light, so they have to be lightly built and are not the most bomb-proof kites around.

-Then there are the big airstyle kites, which have great wind range and jumping but are slow turning. These kites don't have to be particularly light because they are flown in plenty of wind, but this means they aren't the best at staying in the air in light wind.

- Finally, there are the big handling-oriented kites. These have to be light, durable and quick turning. They're good for jumping and popping in light wind, but can also go big when powered. Unlike airstyle kites, they need to be nimble and quick. Unlike race kites, it's ok if they're not the last word in upwind performance.

This is where the Juice comes in. The Juice is based roughly on the Neo arc, strut count, profile and outline, but the aspect ratio has been stretched from 4.5 to 5.3, and the leading edge diameter has been shrunk a bit. The center strut is conventional -- so as to improve overall stability -- and the back pigtail is conventional because a relaunch bungee won't work well on such a thick LE tip.

Struts

Big kites have so much canopy area that they can really benefit from the stability provided by a lot of struts. Unfortunately, struts also add a lot of weight. We opted for three struts on the Juice because this number provides the best combination of low weight, high durability and good canopy stability.

You might wonder why not build a big kite with minimal weight by eliminating all struts, and this is certainly something we've considered. But our experience indicates that the lack of structure in strutless kites robs them not only of top end comfort and depower but also low end power. Add this to the tip flutter in turns and the strutless option seem limited. The Neo has a floating strut in the center to give more complete luffing when sheeted out. We felt this was desirable on a smaller kite like the Neo. For the Juice, however, which is a much bigger kite, we felt a conventional strut in the center would give needed canopy stability.

Arc

The Juice shares the Neo arc. This arc gives a high segment count for good profile fidelity. It also provides smooth and quick steering while keeping good depower and sheet-go power delivery.

Aspect Ratio

We know from testing a wide variety of kites that high aspect ratios can improve bar feel and depower in big kites by quite a bit. High AR can be overdone, as it can give an excessively long and heavy leading edge, but a moderate AR can be just right. With the Juice we found that an AR of 5.3 gave a nice short bar stroke without hurting other aspects of handling such as quick turning.

Canopy Profiles

Given how well the Neo is working, we decided to stick with Neo profiles for the Juice.

Bridle

We like to have several bridle anchor points on the leading edge so that bridle loads on the leading edge are well distributed. This led us to go with eight front bridle anchors. We also like a bridle as short as possible, to reduce the chances of tangles and snags. The shortest bridles we tested did not give the best bar feel or turning ability so we lengthened the bridle to the point where steering and bar feel were good. This left the bridle still short enough that it can’t loop over the end of the leading edge.

Finally, we had to consider whether to go with a pseudo-pulley or fixed front pigtail. Since using a pulley would permit the Neo to work with a greater variety of safety systems, we decided to go with one pulley on each side of the front bridle. But we also knew that a pulley could make the kite feel a little less crisp and responsive. Fortunately, combining the pulley with a stopper – as we’ve done on the Neo and Dyno – allowed us to keep both the pulleys and the crisp bar feel that we were looking for.

Juice in summary

-Steering / turning - Moderately narrow arc and wide tips give super-quick turning.

-Drift / hover -The low weight, low strut count and low center of gravity of the Juice keep it very stable in the air. It flies well in the lightest of winds and resists stalling, both front and back, better than nearly any other kite.

Power delivery - Owing to the smooth, round turning and short bar stroke (for kites this big). The Juice has consistent, linear, sheet-go power delivery. The high aspect ratio helps deliver quick, easy depower.

Materials

We’ve minimized materials where possible on the Juice, so keep the weight down, but have included all usual reinforcements.


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 Rebel vs Juice vs Dyno Monsters
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:24 am 
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I have a 18m Fuse so I guess it's basically just like the Rebel and yes it's a slow turner with the std North 52cm bar w/24m lineset. question: I just bought a Best Redline 57cm bar w/27n lineset, will it be have more grunt and turn faster with wider bar? Haven't been able to try it yet, thanks


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 Rebel vs Juice vs Dyno Monsters
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:07 am 
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Longer bar: faster turning
Longer lines: slower turning
Shorter bar: slower turning
Shorter lines: faster turning

I am sure you cannot compare the Rebel 18 to Fuse 18 performancewise.

Soon we will know exactly ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 Rebel vs Juice vs Dyno Monsters
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:20 am 
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It is great to see Ken is well aware of the characteristics required for an airstyle kite (and indeed the other two types in contrast).

The next step is to ascertain whether this correct theory has translated and indeed possible with the rebel DNA as its basis.

I'm hopefully cynical... :wink: and praying I am proven wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: 2015 Rebel vs Juice vs Dyno Monsters
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:21 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:01 am
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Thanks for sharing!!


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