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Firewire Vader

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:21 pm
by Da Yoda
I started this thread to focus on the Vader specifically. There's been some chatter about it on the Vanguard thread, but I think it makes more sense to have it's own thread.
Bushflyr wrote:Firewire recommends you ride the Vader 1" shorter than you ride the VG. Ideal sizes (IMO) for the VG are 165lbs = 5.2, 185lbs = 5.4, 205 = ~5.6. VD adjust down an inch. In between weights pick the nearest one and make adjustments for how you like to ride. More kite powered or more wave powered. If in doubt go smaller.

Fins on the VG: I've tried a bunch of setups and really like the F4 quads. Cheap and they really work well.
Thanks for posting this! I tried the 5'1 size and it was OK, but it seemed like much more board than my 5'0 VG. My VG is 20.2L, the 5.1 Vader is 22.9L.
Unfortunately the next size down for the kite specific version is the 4'10 at 19L. Has anyone that's ridden the 5'0 VG tried this size? Is the 1L difference noticeable?

Re: Firewire Vader

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:51 pm
by Bushflyr
OK, the first thing you need to do when discussing kite boards is forget about volume. Completely.

Volume matters for surfboards because the board needs to float you while you're paddling. This ability is completely irrelevant to kiting except for that %1 of the time when you're stupidly underpowered and sinking. And selecting a board for that %1 of the time is idiocy.

Since some always jumps into these threads claiming volume matters, just look at an alaia or skim. They have minimal volume but still plane in much lighter winds than a surfboard. Volumes may seem to correlate, but what you really need to be looking at is wetted bottom area.

So, having said that, if the 5.1VD felt too big get the next size smaller. However, if you're riding a 5.0 VG I think you're either really light, 140 or so, or driving it with a lot more kite power and riding the board less.

For reference, I ride a 5.4 VG, 185lbs, and use a 9m Caution Spitfire in 15kt winds. If it steps up to 18kt or so I switch to a 7m Razor and am completely lit.

Re: Firewire Vader

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:28 am
by Da Yoda
Bushflyr wrote:OK, the first thing you need to do when discussing kite boards is forget about volume. Completely.

Volume matters for surfboards because the board needs to float you while you're paddling.
Board volume plays a major roll in how a board will ride for your weight and ability, not how it paddles. Volume matters!
The volume factor needing to be forgotten is seriously misguided. Volume is a very important factor for sizing (if not better) regardless of being pushed by a wave or pulled by a kite.
Volume is the only factor that's always constant vs the board's dimensional shape. By using this method I can easily narrow down what "size" surfboard is going to work best for me along with the shape for it's intended purpose (wave types/conditions). The dimensional shape/size is now just a byproduct of those two factors (volume + applications). So far this method of sizing has proven way more accurate than just guessing what size is best based on what's available dimensionally.
I now know that surfboards around 20-21L for my weight and skill are the sweet spot when used with a kite. For traditional surfing a 23-24L shortboard is the sweet spot for me. So for me, volume is now a key sizing reference that I find to be way more useful, especially when my sizing options may be limited or I need something specific. I no longer focus on the length of a board, only the width, the volume and it's intended use.
Btw, I have a skimboard and wakeskate too. Big difference in where and how you need to ride these type of boards vs a surfboard. The lack of volume requires constant pull from your kite on these board types so they don't sink, especially the wakeskate. Not to mention skimboards and wakeboards are also offered in various sizes/volumes to accommodate different "weight" ranges for "riding", not paddling, so volume really does matter.

Re: Firewire Vader

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:37 am
by Bushflyr
Go take a few fluid dynamics courses and get back to me when you know what you're talking about. It's impossible for volume to have any direct effect on a board when it is not submerged. K thx bye. :roll: :bye:

Re: Firewire Vader

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:04 am
by knotwindy
Da Yoda try not to confuse volume(which matters very little, if at all for kitting) and surface area/shape(which matters a lot). If the board is planning at all volume is meaningless. IMO

Re: Firewire Vader

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:12 pm
by Megabear
Bushflyr wrote:Go take a few fluid dynamics courses and get back to me when you know what you're talking about. It's impossible for volume to have any direct effect on a board when it is not submerged. K thx bye. :roll: :bye:
Disagree
knotwindy wrote: Da Yoda try not to confuse volume(which matters very little, if at all for kitting) and surface area/shape(which matters a lot). If the board is planning at all volume is meaningless. IMO
Disagree
Da Yoda wrote: Board volume plays a major roll in how a board will ride for your weight and ability, not how it paddles. Volume matters!
Agree.

Confusion is complete :-)

Re: Firewire Vader

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:34 pm
by iblocalsurfer
Bushflyr wrote:OK, the first thing you need to do when discussing kite boards is forget about volume. Completely.

Volume matters for surfboards because the board needs to float you while you're paddling. This ability is completely irrelevant to kiting except for that %1 of the time when you're stupidly underpowered and sinking. And selecting a board for that %1 of the time is idiocy.

Since some always jumps into these threads claiming volume matters, just look at an alaia or skim. They have minimal volume but still plane in much lighter winds than a surfboard. Volumes may seem to correlate, but what you really need to be looking at is wetted bottom area.

So, having said that, if the 5.1VD felt too big get the next size smaller. However, if you're riding a 5.0 VG I think you're either really light, 140 or so, or driving it with a lot more kite power and riding the board less.

For reference, I ride a 5.4 VG, 185lbs, and use a 9m Caution Spitfire in 15kt winds. If it steps up to 18kt or so I switch to a 7m Razor and am completely lit.

Some of us like to ride waves when we kite so volume does come into play. Don't see too many people riding waves with an Alaia, although they look like a blast when it's flat. I, like Yoda, can get away with a little less volume when I kite since I don't have to paddle in. But, I still need some to feel the flow of the wave. Otherwise, I'd be relying on the kite to pull me through every turn.

Re: Firewire Vader

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:48 pm
by madworld
Volume IS very important, I like a very float y board like the Cabrinha Phenom 5'8" 28.9 liters

Or

Firewire Quadra 6'0" 28.5 liters.

I have owned both the Firewire was too fragile for me and it only lasted 9 months.

The Cabrinha phenom is built super tuff and after a season, it still is ding free.

Re: Firewire Vader

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:48 pm
by Bushflyr
OK, since you feel you have a better grasp of fluid dynamics than those of us with an actual education in the subject, explain scientifically how the volume of a board, which doesn't interface with the water in any way while on a plane, affects the kiting of said board.

Protip: You can't. :roll:

Re: Firewire Vader

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:56 pm
by madworld
Were I sail it requires some effort to get out to the wind line and back to the beach. Volume is nice and safer. The flotation helps if you need to paddle in.