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3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

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Laughingman
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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby Laughingman » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:11 pm

OnB wrote:
Laughingman wrote:What would be a good idea is to stop making kites that fly on different line lengths... that is just dangerous in a day when everyone else kites fly on equal line lengths... sure include the pig tails for backward compatibility but step out of the past and stop perpetuating a past poor decision already. The industry standard is for kites to be sold to fly on equal line lengths.

Seriously, why continue to do this? Nostalgia?
Pete- What John said was that the bars come with four equal line lengths....and that the pigtails (for rear lines) were to even the lines out after the front lines stretch, which is pretty common, yeah?
Front line stretch is common yes, what I do to account for line stretch is have longer leader lines then needed under the bar float, tie a new knot and viola... I also run kook proof pig tails on all my bar set ups just to give me minor modifications on the fly.

What ever manufacturers do to make bars adjustable is fine with me, but Eastcoast CC is saying something different. He is saying that OR sells their kites with shorter then required rear line leaders and provide a extension to fly on other brand bars... if that is the case, its very confusing and unnecessary.

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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby The Captain » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:14 pm

BTW, isn't it really rear line shrink? All the lines are pre-stretched, the lower loading on the rears allows them to shrink. Stretch 'em back out.

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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby L0KI » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:16 pm

Pete -I do the same thing with the leaders, have had bars set up that way for many years.
John can clarify, but I think OR sets the bridles up to be even on all four and work that way when new.
I think with OR's history of stall-y kites in the past, they have gotten in the habit of liking to add a leader to the back lines to make damn sure the kite is not over-sheeting and prone to stalling.
And then if/when the fronts become a little long, they don't have folks complaining about flying problems because they already have those leaders on the backs.
Many C kites used to come with little 4" pigtails for the rear lines, I've got 20 of them in my little bag of kook proof leaders, or what I call my "brand/bar adapters."

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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby ORSales » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:54 pm

The Captain wrote:OR Sales,

Does this mean all your 2016 and later kites in all sizes will be optimized for the one bar length as well?

(thread drift...)
Yes, in fact our 215s were the same way. We feel - for our kites anyway - there is no longer the need to have oversized bars for big kites (to speed them up) or smaller bars for small kites (to slow them down) we have accomplished this with the kite design itself.
OnB wrote:Pete- What John said was that the bars come with four equal line lengths....and that the pigtails (for rear lines) were to even the lines out after the front lines stretch, which is pretty common, yeah?
Thread drift indeed...

If your kite needs 4x equal line lengths, simply remove the kook proof connectors from our bar.

If you are flying an Ocean Rodeo kite - make sure all 4 lines are equal and then add the kook proof connectors on the back lines.

As for rear line length adjustments in case your front lines stretch, that is taken care of closer to the bar where the front line leaders end and the flying lines start. We have a small neoprene cover over a section of leader that lets you adjust outside line length to accommodate the eventuality that your front lines will sag.

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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby L0KI » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:00 pm

So, are the rear attachment steering bridle pieces (or knot positions) deliberately four inches shorter to accommodate the kook proof pieces?
What if someone flew a current OR kite with four equal line lengths?.....would you have an oversheeted kite or no?
I like the four inch extra on my back lines on most kites, just to make sure the kite will not fly oversheeted, I can live with a tad less max power and have a kite that won't stall easily when I choke the crap out of it. :D

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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby ORSales » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:07 pm

OnB wrote:So, are the rear attachment steering bridle pieces (or knot positions) deliberately four inches shorter to accommodate the kook proof pieces?
What if someone flew a current OR kite with four equal line lengths?.....would you have an oversheeted kite or no?
I like the four inch extra on my back lines on most kites, just to make sure the kite will not fly oversheeted, I can live with a tad less max power and have a kite that won't stall easily when I choke the crap out of it. :D
Wow. This is getting crazy.

Sure. If you want to think of it that way, all of our kite's rear line attachments are short make up the difference of the added kook proof length.

Nothing would happen if you flew our kites with 4 equal line lengths and no kook proof connectors, you would simply notice the kite has more immediate power and that it had a tendency to stall before building apparent wind speeds.

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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby L0KI » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:43 pm

John -
Laughingman Pete said "What ever manufacturers do to make bars adjustable is fine with me, but Eastcoast CC is saying something different. He is saying that OR sells their kites with shorter then required rear line leaders and provide a extension to fly on other brand bars... if that is the case, its very confusing and unnecessary."

I'm just trying to get it straight what you do...or don't do with your bridle leaders.....for clarification...for the readers here.
Personally, I don't care how you do it, I can work it out in two minutes one way or the other.
I'll shut up now and you can field those questions/comments all by your lonesome. :thumb:

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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby juandesooka » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:55 pm

The Captain raises Ye Olde Stretch vs Shrink Question ... now there's a real thread drifter!

My older BWS kites, and some older slingshot kites, have something called a P-line, that connects the front and rear lines, through a steel ring on the kite canopy. Over 20-30 sessions, this line will SHRINK by up to 10% of its length. This leads to furious debate because it seems counter intuitive that lines will contract over time .... but there is no question whatsoever here, I have seen it and dealt with it a dozen times. Shrinkage is real!

The explanation that makes sense to me is that the P-line is made with pre-stretched lines. Over time, and I guess under certain conditions, this pre-stretching reverts back to its unstretched length.

So ... if the flying lines are made with the same pre-stretched line, I think the Captain may be right ... we are not dealing with line stretch of front line, but line shrinkage of real lines. Someone get a tape measure and verify! 8)

[btw, lots of discussion about this in the parasailing world ... as there's lots more lines to deal with and lots more consequence if things aren't exactly/perfectly tuned]

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Laughingman
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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby Laughingman » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:54 pm

ORSales wrote:
OnB wrote:So, are the rear attachment steering bridle pieces (or knot positions) deliberately four inches shorter to accommodate the kook proof pieces?
What if someone flew a current OR kite with four equal line lengths?.....would you have an oversheeted kite or no?
I like the four inch extra on my back lines on most kites, just to make sure the kite will not fly oversheeted, I can live with a tad less max power and have a kite that won't stall easily when I choke the crap out of it. :D
Wow. This is getting crazy.

Sure. If you want to think of it that way, all of our kite's rear line attachments are short make up the difference of the added kook proof length.

Nothing would happen if you flew our kites with 4 equal line lengths and no kook proof connectors, you would simply notice the kite has more immediate power and that it had a tendency to stall before building apparent wind speeds.
But why? anyone new could fly your kites for years not knowing or understanding why they keep back stalling, Everyone would keep telling them to check the lines are all the same length and if the rear line pig tails were not included with the kite they bought of Kijiji.... it could take some time to figure out....
It just makes no sense to tune your kite to fly with uneven lines imho.
Last edited by Laughingman on Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3 bars from 3 manufacturers ? Or not

Postby Slappysan » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:55 pm

ORSales wrote: However, if I follow you're suggesting we also provide front line pigtails to allow others to use this bar with pigtails on all 4 lines for their kite? If this is the case, I can certainly get you some spare pigtails!

We struggle with the best option for the pigtails as by keeping all 4 lines the same length before pigtails on the back lines we make the line replacement very easy to do. If we were to shorten the back lines it would mean that not all line sets out there would work with our kites... I'm always open to suggestions though!
Thanks for the reply John. I fly 4 different kites on one non-OR bar, one of which is an OR Prodigy. While I like the kite I dislike having to worry about adding the pigtails to the rear lines for just that one kite.

I would much rather you simply shorten the kite's rear attachment knot and include 4 kook proof pigtails already installed on your bars like all the other guys have been doing for a long time now.

Then I could hook up my bar to my OR kite without having to worry about stuff like that. I also like to have a pigtail between my lines and my kites so even when I'm flying my OR kite I have double pigtails on the rears and single on the fronts.


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