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Woo vs Xensr

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joriws
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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby joriws » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:02 am

Shifty33 wrote:How's that xensr leaderboard doing? App? Oh yeah... GPS isn't meant for measuring height so that doesnt make the device more accurate. Think woo has done a great job socially and the leaderboard has shown for itself the device works. Top riders in the world are at the top! I can claim I jump 50 60 70 but the device has proven otherwise and honestly it is a reality check for better or worse. I am not Hadlow or Kevin, nor am I the best looking guy out there and dating a super model. It's a sad truth that I just have to accept... Sure there maybe anomalies that happen but overall the experience is dead on, the device works and is accurate enough. The best is when you think only "yours" is broken and swap with buddy only to find its "you" that just suck at jumping.
I don't know about Xensr leaderboard because I don't have Xensr nor affiliated with them. Xensr probably stores GPS height but it is supposed to calculate height similar to Woo device for better than GPS accuracy. Have you ever heard Kalman filters? IMU with GPS is much better than just IMU. With GPS track & timestamps you can sync everything up and see from video if you sync GPS tracks on video on superimpose with Dashware. Try to do that with Woo :).

With Woo you have nothing than fancy leader board with sub-human-hair "accuracy" reporting 36m jumps to leader board. Also problem with leaderboard is that there is the only one global. How can inland lake surfer with 20kn + chop and efficient jumping beat someone who is willing to travel for best jump conditions like +40kn winds and 3m kickers.

One pro visited Sweden and in Woo-based jump competition pro jumped 83 times and lost to a "nobody" with 7 jumps because "nobody" was in hurry. The pro was Zoon. Check Best Kiteboarding Sweden FB page. That's why there is external 3rd party effort to bring leaderboards to country level to bring jumping environment competition closer to jumper competition. Pro have jumped their "stunning records" in much better conditions for Woo because they travel for wind.

With Woo you are victim of marketing. Pros got their Woos for free. You think pros has selected the brand and you must buy similar one to compete against them. You probably did buy "Power Balance" because pro had it also? Did you gain better balance while kiting because your wallet was lighter? :)

With Xensr you have promise to much better. Much more session data than Woo. It can be used speed racing, jumping, other sports like snowboarding etc. We just need to let them improve their software. First Woos also had inconsistency on measuring jump between firmware versions.

And you can jump 50 60 70.. of what unit? Inch? Centimeter? Parsek? And the super models are not super. They are just paid chicks for the video. With record jumping conditions I've never seen a girl with bikini watching some distant dot is jumping.

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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby GG-Fluidkiteboarding » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:32 pm

Savib wrote:Another sesh and another disappointment, sent messages to support but nothing back yet. My take is the speed appears ok, gps is fairly accurate as long as you carefully lock the device. Hang time on jumps (kitesurfing) appears accurate. I say this as it showed 2seconds more time under my 21 fly surfer than a regular pump up. Today when fully lit on a 12 lei I was able to do the same tricks as my fly surfer (board off wise) and the hang time average moved up from 5.5 to 7,s. Not calibrated I understand but relatively it looks the goods.

Jump heights are getting worse every session, today 203 meters.... Yesterday I was clocking up jumps when I blew of the kite and was resetting the bar.

So on a hunch, I've updated the firmware (looks the same to me) and removed all the files as its still some sort of ssd drive and maybe everything after the first few write blocks gets corrupted. My first session had no superhuman jumps.

Anyways like I said everything else appears very close I would be totally stoked if it was performing as per the first session. Anyways i'm hopeful the firmware and clearance of the ssd will help.

Anyone else got some feedback? Just want to make sure I'm not the only one with issues? I assume not as support may be overrun hence no replies to my emails.

i had a preproduction unit so might have been that :) But i dont have anything which is off that much as you are stating.
The only issue i had was that the G forces sometimes didn't work and i couldn't download sesh files.

As for my video it's KM/H not MPH haha big difference! the data is actually from the tomtom bandit camera itself so has nothing to do with Xensr.

Xensr actually showed a max speed of 75km/h tomtom 83km/h (i think it may be fairly acurate)
when it's blowing 40 kts and you are on a 9(i know i'm insane :baby: ) so when you jump you don't stop completely still keep going forward. when jumping you'll have no resistance from water so you'll be flying the same speed as the wind blows?! 40 kts = 74 km/h so could be right?

but i'm not much of a speed guy anyways

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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby fogmeister » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:20 pm

woo has leaderboards for every country.....at least we in canada dont have to compete with south africa.......also has girl leaderboards

http://40kn.com/Canada

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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby fogmeister » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:28 pm

Today when fully lit on a 12 lei I was able to do the same tricks as my fly surfer (board off wise) and the hang time average moved up from 5.5 to 7,s. Not calibrated I understand but relatively it looks the goods.


thats a big average hang compared to woo (and for a tube kite)...........if you look at woo hangtimes they are on average at least a second lower. Now i have to take a stopwatch up there to see which is actually correct.

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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby NHKitesurfer » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:40 pm

Great thread! Probably a good thing I have not yet pulled the trigger on a Xensr despite me holding off on buying a Woo because I really want speed/gps.

With the early reports coming in on accuracy issues with the Xensr I think I'll hold off from buying one and cross my fingers Woo comes out with similar feature. Woo seems to be a lot more accurate and a lot easier to use/share info.

I know the guys at both companies and wish them all well. :thumb:

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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby Maxwave » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:37 pm

Ok, interesting topic. I havent had a chance to try Xensr, but i had Woo, which I lost in my last december session. So I waited until Xensr is out and maybe it is more accurate than Woo. But seems like xensr is not working properly?
In my opinion WOO is FAR FROM ACCURATE, it is just fun device, that shows something, but this is not the actual height you got, not even close. It shows random numbers and is too inaccurate. In my understanding, it might give you +/-3m height difference (depends how strong winds are and how high you jump) and hangtime numbers are also quite random, so the randomness might be even higher. I think, if the error should have been around 50cm , then it is almost acceptable and ok for me, but +-3m? this it not ok.
For me the question rose, when I felt that I jumped much higher than last session jumps, but the jumps showed even lower. Also a friend of mine, who jumps also really good, he got most of the time better woo results, but people on the beach told that I went much higher.

I wanted to test the woo device and there were no accurate tests made, which I can trust. So I made my humble test myself, using camera, red inflatable ball and guy who holds the red ball below the area, where I have the maximum height in jumps.
I made only 8 jumps for my camera. Later watched the video, measured the height of the jumps in the computer screen, using small measuring tape and compared it to the diameter of the red ball and the length of the red jacket, which my friend wore. I know that this is not the most accurate type of testing, but it shows something at least and you can measure it. Testing woo vs xensr or woo vs 3 other woos, it shows just random numbers.

So the test results were

1. jump 5,4m (woo 6,7m) and 5,5sec (woo 4,2sec)
2. jump 6,4m (woo 7,7m) and 4,5sec (woo 3,5sec)
3. jump 9,7m (woo 9,5m) and 5,5sec (woo 4,3sec)
4. jump 10,5m (woo 10,1m) ja 5sec (woo 4,4sec)
5. jump 10,8m (woo 9,3m) and 4,5sec (woo 4,0sec)
6. jump 11m (woo 9,2m) and 5,5sec (woo 4,8sec)
7. jump 10m (woo 8,2m and 5sec (woo 4,3sec)
8. jump 11m (woo 9m) and 5sec (woo 4,9sec)

I add some picture proof of that testing as well. One picture of those jumps and the picture of the woo app display.



So in that small test it was about 2m height difference. The wind was 10-15ms and jumping from small chop. But different conditions, waves, 15-20+ms winds, the error might be even higher.

SO using WOo as a accurate height measuring device? I think that is not correct. It is like using mobile apps Endomondo or Sportstracker for breaking GPS speed records.

I am not actually sure what gives advantage to some riders, who get better woo results, even if the actual jumps are not like it shows. Maybe type of kite and how you jump, type of board, small difference in doing pop, placement of the woo device on the board, conditions-waves, chop, flat and ofcourse inaccuracy of the device itself. But there is a tendancy that some type of jumping gives better woo results, even if the height is not what it shows.


FOr accurate GPS speed, there was Locosys GT-31 (reads 1time per second) and now there is new Locosys GW-52 (reads 5 times per second). If you actually want to break records and want to know what is the heighest maximum speed you are going, then use only GW-52. As GT-31 is not accurate enough, because it does not read those 4 other points during 1 second and in kitesurfing a lot can happen during the second.

My personal maximum speed is 83kmh and I accelerated from 78,5kmh to 83kmh in 0,2second. This is 4,5kmh acceleration in 0,2 sec.
If the device had read this earlier 0,2 second point, my personal max record would have been much different. But that is GPS speed. Every other GPS device is not that accurate. I even used two gw-52 devices then and the results were the same.
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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby Savib » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:28 pm

fogmeister wrote:Today when fully lit on a 12 lei I was able to do the same tricks as my fly surfer (board off wise) and the hang time average moved up from 5.5 to 7,s. Not calibrated I understand but relatively it looks the goods.


thats a big average hang compared to woo (and for a tube kite)...........if you look at woo hangtimes they are on average at least a second lower. Now i have to take a stopwatch up there to see which is actually correct.
All I was saying was with increased measured hang time, I was then able to do a few board offs only reserved for my fly surfer. I said it wasn't calibrated, I suspect a GoPro will be all I need to figure out accuracy of hang time. However all I care about is consistency at the moment. To me if hang is out, it's consistently out (by 1 or 2 seconds).The jump height however is way off. But gps speed and trace seem fine.

Anyways I finally have an email from support so we will see what they say.

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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby Beaatch » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:30 am

Hadlow and Langeree are currently leading the Woo leaderboards, that's a good sign IMO. I was at KOTA last year, of course no wind, but in the days leading up, the two of them went huge. Been having a Woo for a while now together with a few friends, we have good battles with it and it's pretty damn accurate. At least it's impossible for me to beat my friend, and he admittedly does boost higher :evil: :evil:

I did some basic geometry on the Xensr video they released with Jesse Richman (did the same with Woo back then), it seems to measure way too high
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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby joriws » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:02 am

Maxwave wrote:FOr accurate GPS speed, there was Locosys GT-31 (reads 1time per second) and now there is new Locosys GW-52 (reads 5 times per second).
Thanks for interesting post!

Also Xensr rep answered on kiteforum that Xensr has 5Hz gps. What is unknown does Xensr record hdop and vdop similar to Locosys devices. I think both company reps read this topic - so care to answer?

About hangtime and height measuring with IMU. I think the biggest problem for software algorithm is to estimate so called release or start of jump - what was the vertical speed at that moment. I believe Woo reverse tracks I mean stores sensor output. If it finds long time upward speed it goes back the data to evaluate possible release time. And starts double integrating from that point until vertical speed is zero = apex.

With snowboarding (and other freefall sports) jump is when accelometer determines freefall over certain period of time. With kitesports you don't have that. I have Recon mod live hud goggles with imu and it does not show kite jumps because no freefall.

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Re: Woo vs Xensr

Postby joriws » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:44 am

fogmeister wrote:woo has leaderboards for every country.....at least we in canada dont have to compete with south africa.......also has girl leaderboards

http://40kn.com/Canada
No above does not proof that Woo does have leaderboards per every country. Above web site is 3rd party site, not Woo's development. Does Woo APP show records per country? If it does, then it has the feature.

All data for 40kn.com leads to Russia via some cover-up company at Hong Kong.

Domain: http://www.whoismind.com/whois/40kn.com.html
IP: http://www.whoismind.com/ip/178.250.244.101.html


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