Foolkookio & Ridiculous Light Wind Claims

[Starsky]

Riding is up on the board planing with power. Not being able to go upwind is a limitation of kite, board or rider.

Dude, I'm not talking about Gunnar. I'm talking about you. Planing with power, on what? Why is it you will get into the absolute minutia of kites, yet seem afraid to reveal any detail about what board you use? It's kind of pertinent to the discussion of low wind kiting, no?

[foilholio]

foil kites can go 7,9 or more times faster than the wind.

You are getting more and more ridiculous mouthing off such crap.

Not ridiculous at all. For example if a kite has a L/D ratio of 7 and it achieves that moving at 14knots it then only need 2knots wind to achieve it. For every 2knots it moves through the wind it can move 14knots sideways to the wind. 2x7 it's simple math.

Are you talking about twin tips..hydrofoil..landboard...buggy...on ice ....on planet mars ????

I am talking about the kite flying, just one component. Adding a board complicates things for understanding it.

If we were able to go 7-9 times faster than the wind in 6 knots of wind...that would mean 42 to 54 knots...48 to 62 mph !!!............more bullshit ....time to put our boots on again

I never said a kite can go at it's maximum L/D in 6knots of wind. You see it would achieve maximum L/D at speeds much like a paraglider so that would be in 2-3knots wind. In high wind the L/D will get worse (unless it was designed with a thinner airfoil), what will get better with more wind is the actual speed and lift of the kite, lift states/AoAs higher than best L/D will improve in L/D too where at say 2/3knots they would just stall the kite. L/D where it is moving slower will improve too but that enters in board riding.

Has ridden in 3-4 knots or less....and has seen it done quite often

Yep

Has relaunched a large size ram air kite filled 1/3 of water ( 2200 lbs weight....one ton )

Yep not easy. Well technically it didn't relaunch till the water was out but hey.

Strongly believes that the force exerted by a 8 knot wind in a kite versus the force exerted in a kite by a 4 knot of wind.....is 8 times stronger....8 times more force per square meter

Well this would be a theoretical change. What the kite experiences would depend on it's design and how it is ridden. Most people don't seem to work a kite to ride and most kites don't seem to like being worked. Only kites with high L/D will really benefit from working them. Everyone stops working kites at some point and then starts slowing down their riding. It allows great control of the kite. It is amazing though when you fling that thing across the window especially in high winds just how much power it can make.



Oh did you see that 2-3knot claim posted by Regis from Benoit the Designer of the Pulsion ? Get ready to get excited Pully you'll have lots more to post about

[Starsky]

Oh did you see that 2-3knot claim posted by Regis from Benoit the Designer of the Pulsion ?

Ease up there foilgasm. He's talking about flying it on land there, not planing behind it on water.

Oh yeah, are you just gonna ignore my question about what boards you ride?

[foilholio]

from 2/3 to 11/12 with a hydrofoil

I think you'll find I have answered my board question many times if you can't imagine what makes a board good for light wind other than a hydrofoil, oh well. One hint though the same physics are at work.

[Starsky]

from 2/3 to 11/12 with a hydrofoil

Was that before or after he states he's not a very good foiler? 2-3 knots... pffffft beginner stuff!

Two loonies conspiring to change physics? I'm afraid were dealing with constants here, kinda like your willingness to talk talk talk with literally no info. I cant be bothered looking back through it all to find your magic board. I do remember you dissing my wave riding. Think that's what piqued my interest. I also remember you talking about sublime surfing using your foils, but sadly no proof is yet another constant with you.

Lets hear it. Is it.... a big ol door? or maybe its a "surfboard". I actually have a current and experienced understanding of what makes a good light wind board.

Come on. Why so cagey? It's basic disclosure. Either you can actually ride, and we can put a little stock into what you say, or your'e on something that might appeal to 0.3% of kiters worldwide. I've shown you a few of my boards. I'm not pushing for that much insight. A simple description would suffice.

[Bigdog]

3-4 knots on a plane ya right on a kite filled with helium maybe

[/i]

[dracop]

3-4 knots on a plane ya right on a kite filled with helium maybe

[/i]

I wonder if anyone has ever tried that...a kite filled with helium. Think a foil kite full of those enclosed foil cells but with helium instead of air. Be an interesting science experiment thats for sure lol

[cor]

from 2/3 to 11/12 with a hydrofoil

I think you'll find I have answered my board question many times

Couldn't find this in this thread and I don't want to go through all your posts. Would you mind telling us again the exact setup you use for 3-4 knots?

I am following this thread for quite a while. I am not questioning your expertise about kites and flying in low end because it is way superior to almost everyone here including me. However, now that I know you are actually not talking about Hydrofoiling, which I always assumed, I am questioning your claims, too.

Just to be clear: What you consider riding, i.e. planning on the board we don't know and just going downwind is not what 99,9% of all Kiters consider as riding. Mabye that is your definition, which is fine, but you should have mentioned that earlier to avoid a lot of pointless discussions. For me, riding is equal to "having a session" and you cannot have any session w/o staying upwind and I am not talking about fun sessions either (which is whole different topic).

I know it is indeed possible to ride in 4 knots (including going upwind and having a session!) on a hydrofoil and a very large foil kite like sonics 15 or 18 or a FS Speed 21 because I have seen it more than once. There are a lot of ppl here in the forum who think not even that is possible. However, there is a clear limit and I clearly doubt that this is possible w/o a hydrofoil unless you use a Board which is probably the size of a small stand up paddle which would not be considered as kiting either.

So, what is your exact setup?

[sabraxas]

For example if a kite has a L/D ratio of 7 and it achieves that moving at 14knots it then only need 2knots wind to achieve it. For every 2knots it moves through the wind it can move 14knots sideways to the wind. 2x7 it's simple math.

Emmmm...
Emmmm...
Emmmm...

L/D Ratio: 7

Windspeed: 2 knots

¿How do you get to "the kite moving sideways at 14 knots" ¿per hour? with this two parameters?

Come on, man. I have a 18 meters Speed 4. It does not fly below 5 knots.

With 5 knots of windspeed, my Flysurfer can achieve a Lift force of ¿3 kgs? to get the kite into the air. With less than that, it falls from the sky.

So, again, ¿how do yo translate relation between Lift force and drag force in the speed the kite is moving sideways?

[foilholio]

Glad you ask sabraxas. L/D is directly related to glide ratio. Now the numbers are made up but not far off reality so lets use them again. If you achieve a L/D of 7 in 14knots airspeed you then have a sink rate of 2knots. Well at a certain point in the window in 2knots of wind becomes your sinkrate and your kite then can move at 14knots, that is if you sheet it right. The same can happen if you can get the board up to near that speed. Now obviously it can't always be in that position in the wind window unless you are riding or on long enough lines, turning too will detract from it's speed. I think the sp4-18 parks down to 4knots but anyway, this explanation is why kites can continue to fly in wind that if you stop actively flying they will fall out of the air and is also why as the wind gets less the area that a kite can fly becomes more and more constricted to purely down wind of the flyer, basically where the maximum sink rate would be.

Now your park speed is I think a bit different. At the edge of the window standing not riding the kite needs to support it's own weight. It does this best above your head where lift can best oppose gravity and the wind is strongest. Now the tricky bit the airfoil for best L/D and best lift are different. With a higher lift airfoil your kite will park in even less wind. One of the interesting things about foil kites is they can change their airfoil. That is not to say other kite don't do it as well, it's just that foils have some customization in that area. Highest lift can be achieved by not making a wing fatter but by adding more curve.

ouldn't find this in this thread and I don't want to go through all your posts. Would you mind telling us again the exact setup you use for 3-4 knots?

I am following this thread for quite a while. I am not questioning your expertise about kites and flying in low end because it is way superior to almost everyone here including me. However, now that I know you are actually not talking about Hydrofoiling, which I always assumed, I am questioning your claims, too.

Just to be clear: What you consider riding, i.e. planning on the board we don't know and just going downwind is not what 99,9% of all Kiters consider as riding. Mabye that is your definition, which is fine, but you should have mentioned that earlier to avoid a lot of pointless discussions. For me, riding is equal to "having a session" and you cannot have any session w/o staying upwind and I am not talking about fun sessions either (which is whole different topic).

I know it is indeed possible to ride in 4 knots (including going upwind and having a session!) on a hydrofoil and a very large foil kite like sonics 15 or 18 or a FS Speed 21 because I have seen it more than once. There are a lot of ppl here in the forum who think not even that is possible. However, there is a clear limit and I clearly doubt that this is possible w/o a hydrofoil unless you use a Board which is probably the size of a small stand up paddle which would not be considered as kiting either.

So, what is your exact setup?

I think the discussion originally started on me claiming people can ride (upwind) from 3-4knots. As you have stated you have seen this and so have I. When I say riding downwind it is like 10-20degrees downwind it is not directly downwind, that doesn't work in lightwind like that. I don't think anyone is having a session in 3-4knots( well maybe regis is). To say that you are then going to have wind falling below that and that becomes near impossible. What people I think and I am claiming is that is the limit for getting up and riding, and for some they still go upwind. The limit is probably 2knots but may as well say 3. Wind can bounce up and down 0.5-1 knot every second.

That quote is Benoit Tremblay the designer of the Pulsion, which is the lightest foil kite available. viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2392648&start=110 bottom of the page. The thread has apparently been destroyed by me and oldladyspert bickering.

The best low end I get is on the Aurora 22m with a largish surfboard at about 6-7 knots upwind. 3 knots I have done with a fish and A15-18. The A15 was highly altered to do that.