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Aerodynamically better leading edge

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Faxie
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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby Faxie » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:09 pm

edt wrote:
Faxie wrote: Looking at experiments in the past with odd shaped tubes and added cloth behind the LE, I don't think significant improvements will be possible without a new kind of stronger and lighter material.
we didnt know what the f*** we were doing with kites 10 years ago. We have to take the knowledge we have now about how to build bridles, kites, shapes and such and add changing the shape of the tube to it. You know those experiments with cuben fiber? that's the wrong direction. You don't want to make the size of the cylinder smaller you want to make the shape of the leading edge better.
Best is still using it, or not anymore?

The aerodynamics of a kite are not defined by tube alone, there's still a lot op cloth behind it that for a big part with it's camber dictates the efficiency. And a smaller LE can give you a better camber, and with less frontal area, you get less drag also. But with a more streamlined tube, you'll have to increase the size to compensate for the loss of structural integrity, thus adding more frontal area, increasing drag. And don't forget linedrag too. My guess is that a different tube shape won't offer any benefits. In the end you'll have the same netto l/d ratio. Not to mention a more difficult and probably weaker construction.

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Bille
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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby Bille » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:59 pm

Faxie wrote: ...

... My guess is that a different tube shape won't offer any benefits. In the end you'll have the same netto l/d ratio. Not to mention a more difficult and probably weaker construction.
That is your opinion ; i got a way different one. Would you want it any different as far
as opinions go ? No would be my answer ; way better with diversity, in problem solving, seams
like there's better odds in finding a solution ? Some here say there wasn't a problem
with kite design, to begin with ; again , my opinion differs. LEI kite technology, is back
where we were in the mid 80's with HG designs ; there is a LOT to be learned when
making kites, and anyone that tells you different, is WAY off base.

Dang - were talking about kite design , and i don't even like the way you
guys talk about launching them, (there is a WAY better way) i bin using
for nearly 8 years now, that doesn't involve other humans.

Bille

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Bille
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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby Bille » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:16 pm

edt wrote: we didnt know what the f*** we were doing with kites 10 years ago.
...
I can't tell you how important that statement by edt is !!!! :thumb:

The sum total of ALL mans knowledge is doubling at a rate of
every (1) year ; what we knew about kites 10 years ago , we got like
((10 X 2) times 10)) More knowledge, to draw from now.

I really wish, some of you , would at least TRY to understand that .

Bille
Last edited by Bille on Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kitejunkie
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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby kitejunkie » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:48 pm

Gaastra had the double bladder oval shaped leading edge 13+ years ago on their big kites.

Faxie
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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby Faxie » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:22 am

Bille wrote:
Faxie wrote: ...

... My guess is that a different tube shape won't offer any benefits. In the end you'll have the same netto l/d ratio. Not to mention a more difficult and probably weaker construction.
That is your opinion ; i got a way different one. Would you want it any different as far
as opinions go ? No would be my answer ; way better with diversity, in problem solving, seams
like there's better odds in finding a solution ? Some here say there wasn't a problem
with kite design, to begin with ; again , my opinion differs. LEI kite technology, is back
where we were in the mid 80's with HG designs ; there is a LOT to be learned when
making kites, and anyone that tells you different, is WAY off base.

Dang - were talking about kite design , and i don't even like the way you
guys talk about launching them, (there is a WAY better way) i bin using
for nearly 8 years now, that doesn't involve other humans.

Bille
Well I've always learned that if you want to solve problems and come up with solutions, you have to account for everything that comes with it and be realistic. And the limiting factor in this case is materials. You just cannot create a different shape with the same strength, durability and weight, with the same materials. And if there would be a solution in the future, that would also mean it could be implemented in current LE's, in turn reducing their size, making the kite more efficient. The question is how much you gain vs how much you have to sacrifice. Especially in LW conditions, where you would want the better performance, kite weight is a important factor.

And looking at kites like the Edge or Apollo, I wouldn't call a round tube inefficient....

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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby spritrig » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:00 am

The leading edge is only the cross sectional area of the kite when it is de-powered. You get more lift when you power up the kite (which increases the cross sectional area of the kite canopy beyond that of the inflated leading edge) creating drag. The lift to drag ratio of a kite is the slope (rise/run) of the fly lines. No drag and the kite can fly right over head with infinite sloped lines (zero run), lose lift, lose tension on the lines, and go out of control if you don't run upwind, fly the kite side to side, or power it up increasing drag beyond that of the leading edge. You actually need some drag to put it behind the edge of the wind window to have some lift to have line tension and control of the kite.
A lighter kite is needed for a high speed low drag kite. It needs to stay up and under control with less lift induced drag.
If you want aerodynamic shape, go for the closed cell foil kite. 1/5 the weight of an LEI (easier to take on an airplane) and no pump! Performs great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Gmw82Xlk8

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mopman365
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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby mopman365 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:42 am

Bille wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:16 pm

I can't tell you how important that statement by edt is !!!! :thumb:

The sum total of ALL mans knowledge is doubling at a rate of
every (1) year ; what we knew about kites 10 years ago , we got like
((10 X 2) times 10)) More knowledge, to draw from now.

I really wish, some of you , would at least TRY to understand that .

Bille
OK, I'll try.

Where do you get this fact from that "The sum total of ALL mans knowledge is doubling at a rate of
every (1) year"? Are you not confusing knowledge with the amount of bullshit stored on web servers?

Your maths is a bit off. If you double "knowledge" every year for 10 years, you will have 512 x "knowledge" at year 10. Not "like ((10 X 2) times 10))" = 200.
edt wrote: we didnt know what the f*** we were doing with kites 10 years ago.
...
Who is this collective "we" you guys are talking about? Do you include kite designers that's been in the game since the 90s or are you talking just about your own knowledge?

My experience of kite performance over the last 18 years suggest to me that most of the major gains were achieved in the first 10 years. The last 8 has mostly been little tweaks to existing designs, achieved mostly through minor bridle changes.

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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby HellYeah » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:51 pm

I think it is safe to say that kites will not get any better than they are now. Kite companies will always say their latest model is "Progress" but the reality is it's not. They might make their kites stronger, but what does that really mean? It means that their kites will also be heavier. And if they make their kites "lighter" it means it's not going to be as durable. If they make the latest model "faster" then it means it's not as lofty, or if they add a pulley it means less direct feel. For every good thing that's added, a bad one takes it's place. There will never be a "perfect" kite that has every advantage on earth.

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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby andylc » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:18 pm

Except mine. Mine is the best.

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Re: Aerodynamically better leading edge

Postby iriejohn » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:15 pm

andylc wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:18 pm
Except mine. Mine is the best.
No, I am Spartacus! :nono:


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