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sabraxas
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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby sabraxas » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:59 am

Kitemanmuc wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:52 am

I rode Rebels over Evos because I didn't like the vague 4 line feeling of the Evo. I like knowing exactly where the kite is in the air.
Rebels and Evos are totally different kites, beyond 4 or 5 líneas seting.
I was talking differences between Rebel and Fuses, almost exactly same kite, but with different line seting.

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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby sabraxas » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:49 pm

Dan, well done. You are a good salesman.

Again, thanks for your explanation, but I think there are some flaws.
Dan-at-North wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:29 pm

North as a brand (and I personally) have for 10+ years pushed the 5th line as the only reliable safety. We've also pushed the performance advantages of the loaded 5th line (while admitting it's shortcomings) and touted the positive bar feedback 'feel' of a loaded 5th line (though this is inherently subjective). We literally own the patent on 5-lines.

During that time period we've seen countless claims of "as good as a 5th line" (Recon anyone? How about Recon 2?) come and go. Early on we saw death spirals from single front- or back-line safeties. Which is why we started with a double-front-line safety, which we claimed was as good as any 4-line safety but still not as good as a 5th. Bridles/designs improved to account for single-point loading and we (along with other brands) developed perfectly adequate single-front-line safety systems that actually do rival the 5th line for safety/ease of use.
Yeah, I remember 2005 when first came the 5th line. It was day and night in kites relaunching from water and security during ejection.
Also remember Cabrinha Recon System, a totally disaster. Those plastic balls, hot relaunching and ocassional deathloops when the Recon got stucked. At least one person died in the world because of that system.

In 2006 came the "fantastic" train of bows. Later, with this new "bow arced" leading edge , 5th line was not necessary to relaunch kites from water. In 2006 North didnt get in that train of bows, and in 2007 you change the shape of Rhinos and it appeared for first time the Rebel. But both kites lacked of bridles, they sustained the more opened leading edge with the loaded 5th line. I guess a matter of patents. Fifth belongs to North.

In those years, Rebel still not a "Rebel" and i bought a Switchblade. My surprise was when I normally eject the SW. Some kind of death spyrals, a totally mess.
We were only two kiteboarding in my spot and usually ended my session by ejecting the kite. I added not loaded 5th line to my SW.

I Changed my kites for Rhino and Evo 2008. North kites came first that year with bridles and pulleys. Optional 4-5th line flying. Good kite that Rhino, the Evo was not that good. During ejection, in 4 lines, the Evo fell from the sky, but when in the water, lot of power still on the kite.


Dan-at-North wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:29 pm
As we've seen 4-line safeties improve we started trying to make a performance freeride kite that would be 4-line compatible. I think we started the Fuse project in 2009 with this goal specifically in mind. The problem was simply that we couldn't get a kite to work as well as the Rebel. Ken can certainly shine more light on this, but from what I can tell, we based the shape of the Fuse on the shape of the Rebel, and though the Fuse was a cult classic, there were a lot of drawbacks to that shape that certainly did not fit the classic Rebel "performance freeride" bill.
Four lines safeties improved very much in 2009. Again, 2009. Cabrinha came with IDS and when ejected in one front line, the kite fell from sky and no power remaining during in the water, almost like a 5th line system.

So, 5th line was not needed to relaunch kites from water, no 5th line needed to depower very well an ejected kite without death spyrals and remaining power. So ¿Why did North, a major brand, did sustain the 5th line, an unnecessary and unknown system for new generation of kiters? ¿A matter of patents?

The answer came a few years later, when i owned a 10m Rebel 2011 and 9m Fuse 2012.
When ejected in 4 lines, the Fuse had a lot of remaining power. The Rebel lacked of remaining power but, ocassionally, as we all know, wraps the 5th in the canopy.

I flew side by side the 5th line Rebel 10m with the 4 line Fuse 9m.
Rebel was faster, it turned sustained more in the center of the leading edge, and the Fuse sustained more in the tips. With one meter more of fabric, the Rebel had upper windrange and a shorter bar stroke.
The Fuse felt good, but the feeling of the Rebel was Unique.
So, there we were. If North sustained the loaded 5th line was not for security but for that unique feeling.


Dan-at-North wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:29 pm
Last Fall he announced that he had a winning (sorry) design and he invited a very skeptical team out to test it. The entire team (myself included at a later date) had to admit that flying what has become the 2018 Rebel back-to-back with the 2017 Rebel (which was a very good vintage), the 2018 Rebel simply performed better in just about every way. It jumped bigger, was faster through the window, went upwind better, had better sheet-and-go power, turned faster, turned WAY better (more natural/roundly), is more stall-resistant, more stable , etc.

If we want to continue to make the best possible performance freeride kite, we couldn't very well take this gem that could fly on both 4 and 5 lines and reject it for a kite with lower performance characteristics that could only fly on 5 lines.
So, 2017, Ken Winner "discovers" that flatening the profile and adding 6 attachment points bridling in the leading edge -the central points very near where before was attached the 5th line- he would find the "GEM" that jumped bigger, was faster through the window, went upwind better, had better sheet-and-go power, turned faster, turned WAY better (more natural/roundly), is more stall-resistant, more stable. and outperformed the previous Rebel.

The only thing lost in this equation is the unique feeling of the loaded 5th line, that made unique the Rebel.

As you said
Dan-at-North wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:29 pm
Does it have the classic 'feel' of a loaded 5th line kite? Not quite. Is that a sacrifice? Depending on your personal preference, possibly.
But who cares... The older Rebels owners? A "few of hard die 5th line fanatics" cannot be compared to hundreds of newbies that wanted to approach the Rebel and they were frightened of unrolling five lines in the sand.

There are a lots of kites like the 2018 Rebel. Core XR, for example. Very good kite. Triple risptop. The ugly of Core models is that only come in black and white.

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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby Dan-at-North » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:57 pm

Sabraxas-

Pretty accurate roundup of the last 12 years of safety development in kiteboarding. You have good awareness/memory of the evolution of designs/safeties. However I'm not sure you're drawing the correct conclusion and I think your sarcasm about Ken "discovering" some simple design isn't called for. This is not to say you're wrong, just that I don't think you have the authority to draw such conclusions having never ridden the new Rebel.

So: please try the kite. If you still feel that we sold out the traditional Rebel rider for a more commercially accessible kite, feel free to come back on here and say so. I'm sure there will be at least one person who feels that way and their opinion is valid (and I'd like to hear it). I have heard lots of good reviews from people testing our 2018 Rebels here in Hood River, but as I've admitted before, A. These people like shiny new kites and B. It's possible they're coating their reaction because I work for North.

What is not valid is to jump to conclusions about the design and our intentions without having given the kite a try.

So as I said before, please try the new Rebel before you judge it. See your local North Kiteboarding dealer for a demo.

-Dan

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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby matth » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:59 pm

Dan-at-North wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:57 pm
Sabraxas-

Pretty accurate roundup of the last 12 years of safety development in kiteboarding. You have good awareness/memory of the evolution of designs/safeties. However I'm not sure you're drawing the correct conclusion and I think your sarcasm about Ken "discovering" some simple design isn't called for. This is not to say you're wrong, just that I don't think you have the authority to draw such conclusions having never ridden the new Rebel.

So: please try the kite. If you still feel that we sold out the traditional Rebel rider for a more commercially accessible kite, feel free to come back on here and say so. I'm sure there will be at least one person who feels that way and their opinion is valid (and I'd like to hear it). I have heard lots of good reviews from people testing our 2018 Rebels here in Hood River, but as I've admitted before, A. These people like shiny new kites and B. It's possible they're coating their reaction because I work for North.

What is not valid is to jump to conclusions about the design and our intentions without having given the kite a try.

So as I said before, please try the new Rebel before you judge it. See your local North Kiteboarding dealer for a demo.

-Dan

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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby sabraxas » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:48 pm

It is ok, Dan.
Even if the 2018 Rebel outperforms previous Rebels, I think this new 4 line model comes out almost 3 or 4 years later.
Honestly, I think you did have the tools and knowledge, they were there for years.

You are very polite offering me a demo of 2018 Rebel. I live far away, in south América.
Here there are no demos. At best a few for a few kiters.
If you wanna try, first you pay and then you demo. And no regrets.

Nice to have these words with you.

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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby PullStrings » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:10 pm

sabraxas wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:49 pm
The only thing lost in this equation is the unique feeling of the loaded 5th line, that made unique the Rebel.

But who cares... The older Rebels owners? A "few of hard die 5th line fanatics" cannot be compared to hundreds of newbies that wanted to approach the Rebel and they were frightened of unrolling five lines in the sand.

There are a lots of kites like the 2018 Rebel. Core XR, for example. Very good kite. Triple risptop. The ugly of Core models is that only come in black and white.
Someone i know tested a new 12 Rebel and said the bar trow feel is linear just like a Riot...good but not so unique anymore...looks like this will be the new normal
As far as being afraid of unrolling 5 lines in the sand :D ...i've never bothered taking lines on/off...my 5 sizes Rebels have each their own ideal Trust bar line lengths / bar widths & tuning
Hey my bar and lines wear out much slower...especially my high wind small sizes 5,6.. it's great to know the bar/lines are very safe looking nearly like new after many many years

Hey maybe Core will one day change from twist to push QR :D ...and make colorful kites :D

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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby Teabageppo » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:53 am

Wow lot's of 'experts' on here regarding the new rebel and the loss of the loaded fifth; including some weird historical lesson on the fifth line and its safety implications, mixed in with some contextual conspiracy bloody theories and the timing release of a 4 line rebel.

Coming from someone whose been kiting 17 seasons now, and an avid rebel fan since 2010, I must admit I have some apprehensions regarding the new rebel.

But until you have ridden it, until you have tested it back to back with a 2017 (like I will - as well as against the 2016/2017 evo that all the lads use I ride with)

You are just guessing.

So be-careful making accusations and assumptions about what is and what isn't. Ride it...and if you can't, keep your opinions to yourself, because that's all they are unqualified opinions. Ride it then you can at least make an informed opinion, assuming you actually have the skill to push the kite to its limits to see what it can do. I would suggest most don't and are full of shit. anyhow....

............................................

But I will pose some hypotheticals that are going on in my mind at the moment (and that's all they are - theories).

I'm more concerned about the EVO actually. I love riding my buddies evos, I especially liked the 2016 version...great dependable looping kite that could be taken at even beyond its wind range limit.

3 struts...will make a very different kite and I suppose that is what they are after from what I hear.

My question is....will they offend normal rebel riders with a rebel that has some 'Evo' feel built into it with the pulleys and bridal, but then offend all the evo riders (like my buddies) who loved the 5 strut, allround platform.

That is the new rebel, may still be too 'rebel' for the Evo rider, but not enough 'rebel' for the rebel rider.

Will the two new derivations kind of sit in between nowhere.

We actually thought by 2016 north really had their line-up of kites really sorted. We get to jump on everything from the vegas through to the neo...and we really liked where each kite sat on the spectrum. They all have that north feel, but you can specifically feel the target reason behind each kite.

I'm just not sure what the new EVO will be all about. A 3 strut 'pivot' type kite maybe...a 3 strut wave riding, jumping kite the the Dice being the 3 strut wave riding unhooked tricks kite.

That could be their aim I'd say, maybe?

Maybe the rebel and evo of 2016/2017 just were too close together overall, couldn't warrant keeping them both alive.


Who knows, I will get on the new rebel asap and let you all know.

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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby mkNY » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:17 am

eppo when you do demo, please compare it to the 16/17 EVOs. I'm in the same boat as your buddies, love my 16/17 EVOs but am very intrigued by the new Rebel.

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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby PullStrings » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:34 am

Failed Tropicana packaging ( sales plunged 20% ) so they went back to the original :P

Image

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Re: North Rebel 2018

Postby sabraxas » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:06 pm

Teabageppo wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:53 am
Wow lot's of 'experts' on here regarding the new rebel and the loss of the loaded fifth; including some weird historical lesson on the fifth line and its safety implications, mixed in with some contextual conspiracy bloody theories and the timing release of a 4 line rebel.
Well, that was the weird history of Fifth Element.
Since 2006, 5th line is no needed for relaunching most of the kites kites from water.
Since 2009, 5th line is no needed for safety.

But lets hear what a real expert has to say about that:

Ken Winner 01.08.2016, about Rebel 2017:
"One of the features that gives the Rebel its uniquely short bar stroke and superior performance in over-powered conditions is the loaded 5th line"

Ken Winner 03.08.2015, about Rebel 2016:
"It remains a 5-line kite for all the obvious reasons. The Short depower stroke and crisp feel is ideal for those who like a responsive kite, and can appreciate the importance of achieving full depower with minimal movement of the bar. It’s incredibly stable, and easy to relaunch in light winds. The 5th-line is also the most safe system out there, and additionally offers independence to those riders who need to self land and launch."

Ken Winner, 11.08.2014, about Rebel 2015:
(¿Why does Rebel remain with loaded 5th line?)
"First of all for a short depower stroke and a crisp feel. Anyone who rides waves or has short arms or just likes a responsive kite can appreciate the importance of achieving full depower with a minimal movement of the control bar.

Second, the super stability. If it weren't so easy to keep it in the air, you'd be forgiven for thinking it's made of rock.

Third, easy relaunch in light winds. Even riders who like four-line kites often add a fifth line to make relaunch possible in super-light wind.

Fourth, safety. When you need to get total, complete and perfect depower in half a second, nothing else works as well as a 5th line.

Last but not least, the easy self-landing – for people who don’t want to always depend on someone on the beach catching their kite. Not the safest way to do it, but possible."

All those statements in Norths blog → https://www.northkiteboarding.com/blog/ ... 8tbMW31svA

----------------------------------------------

So... What do you think Teabaggedeppo?

Personally, I do think that a Rebel in four lines is one kite among many others.
There were other kites that outperformed previous Rebel, again, Core XR4, for example.

I do think that the 5th was the soul of the Rebel, an unique and direct connection between the heart of the kite and the hook in my harness. The other "Y" front lines were just secondary appendices of that perfect connection.

Without 5th, the Rebel is lost.
Last edited by sabraxas on Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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