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Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:02 am
by Peter_Frank
NorCalNomad wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:19 am
Matteo V wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:24 pm
Surfboards, in general, just do not go upwind better than a light wind TT.
ahahahahahahah that's a fucking good joke. :lol: :lol: :lol:

NorCalNomad is right, no joke there.

A normal TT will go upwind just as well as a classic surfboard, but be powered by one step bigger kite.

Thus a lightwind TT can go upwind just as well as a classic surfboard (NOT the square ones) with the same kite, true.

Having said that, you can always tweak a waveboard to become a freeraceboard, flatter, more square bigger fins etc, so it will outperform the door upwind.

8) PF

Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:23 am
by Archer77
Matteo V, iblocalsurfer, joriws, Windigo1 thank you for the advice on the Doors! I was supposing this but lacking of real feedback!

Starsky yeah sure a door have some limits... maybe on very flat water it's still fun...

Thank you also to Peter_Frank, or6, PullStrings, iriejohn, BillyKP, alexrider,NorCalNomad, joriws for their contribute and clarification

lately I will read again all comment to see which way choose...

Door TT, Big Surfboard, Nugget style surfboard.... or foil!

Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:16 pm
by Starsky
joriws wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:40 am

Also if you hf strapless it is plowing, nothing more.
Nothing more? Are you foiling yet?

If farmers plowed their fields in constant carving lines at 25 km/h I suppose you might have a point, but foiling strapless feels more like flying than plowing.

Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:51 pm
by NorCalNomad
joriws wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:40 am
But in single digit winds and 12m lei.. :) Also if you hf strapless it is plowing, nothing more.
Spoken like someone who has not foiled or foiled strapless.

Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:29 am
by toddsphresh
im not rich enough for a foil board but i can ride a surfboard and have fun and stay upwind if my 10m will fly at all around the 7- 10 knots i only weigh 140 lbs though

Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:58 am
by Matteo V
iriejohn wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:22 pm
PullStrings wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:12 pm
Matteo V wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:24 pm
If you are willing to develop a high degree of skill on a light wind directional, you can match and possibly exceed the performance of a light wind TT
I agree
But then again.
Matteo V wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:24 pm
Don't discount a light wind TT! I initially believed the lie about surfboards being better at light winds than TT's. But LWTT's are just superior to even the most light wind directional. At least when comparing equal rider skill. If you are willing to develop a high degree of skill on a light wind directional, you can match and possibly exceed the performance of a light wind TT.
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iriejohn - Read the above a bit more carefully and you will have it...............or let me spell it out for you - A high degree of skill on a light wind directional in steady winds with long reaches for minimizing lost ground during jibes or blown tacks, or again a high degree of tacking skill, will be able to match or exceed high performance LWTT's. Take any of those ideal conditions away, whether it be removing "ideal conditions" and trading them for "real world conditions" or even slightly lower skill, and a LWTT wins. It wins for the masses of kiteboarders. It wins for your average kiteboarder at your average kiteboarding location. It wins for everyone else I have observed who does not spend every possible day out on the water. Pick a random kiteboarder with some TT skill, and some directional skill, and they will be able to make the LWTT work better for light wind than the surfboard. Throw in shifty or gusty inland winds or less than ideal ocean conditions, and a LWTT will edge upwind while a surfboard is struggling to make enough flow over the fins to produce a foiling force to compare to the near instantaneous edging force of a LWTT.

Summed up, you have to put way more into riding a surfboard with regards to time and skill, in order to get the same performance out of it as you would with a LWTT. To exceed a LWTT's performance with a surfboard, you need ideal conditions/steady wind/long reaches/lots of time to develop skill.

NorCalNomad wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:19 am
Matteo V wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:24 pm
Surfboards, in general, just do not go upwind better than a light wind TT.
ahahahahahahah that's a fucking good joke. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I would have agreed with you before my experiences led me to come to the contrary conclusion. I would have mirrored your above post's position naught but 6 years ago, though in a more tactful manner. Around then, I began to develop my directional skills more seriously, having bought in on the mentality you are expressing. After gaining experience and comparing my riding TT's and directional "back to back", I came to the opposite conclusion of your current position. I would give your position merit if I would have ever come across anyone with your feelings who could back it up by actually showing me in their riding.

But I observed other kiters in the same situation coming from TT's to surfboards. The same sentiment I was beginning to develop said LWTT's were superior to surfboards, was expressed by all other kiters of my skill level. Then I started asking many levels of kiters, less and more skilled than me, about TT vs. surfboard upwind. All have verified that upwind on a LWTT is superior to a surfboard when taken on average, or when accounting for beginner to intermediate skill (most say advanced too), and when comparing less than ideal conditions. I appreciate your dissent as it allows clarification of my position. But I do feel that your are somewhat stuck on that old position and not really willing to question your own ideals. Maybe you could examine why surfboards are not the staple of light wind today. I am sure you would cite that surfboards are not the easiest to ride for everyone, so less people ride them. But that would be, in a way, proving my hypothesis that they are simply not as easy to get upwind with as LWTT's.


I do love surfboards and ride them nearly exclusively. I have even lost some of my TT skills in recent years due to lack of use. I am not saying surfboards are bad. I am just saying that there are some BS ideas passed around that seem to self perpetuate. I am just as much a victim of them as other kiters that take a path similar to mine. But after putting in the time and making sure to compare during the same sessions, I am positive that the LWTT is superior to the surfboard and that my ranking holds weight against any other ordering. Again, this is me saying I have held your position, then proved that position I held, wrong. I am not ashamed to have been wrong. But I am happy to have the wherewithal to examine my convictions and correct them when they are held in error.

I am sure you will stick to your guns on this one, so how would you re-order my list of light wind capabilities?

Here is a scale from lightest wind to highest.

1. Hydrofoil
2. "Old school" raceboard (surfboard with racing fins)
3. Light wind twin-tip
4. Custom or purpose built LW surfboard (Sector series down to SS "Alien Twister")
5. Large standard surfboard
6. Medium to large twin-tip
7. Medium surfboard
8. Small standard surfboard
9. Small or highly rockered TT
#8 and #9 would swap if you used them in light wind. But at the typical wind speeds (high) they are used in, the small surfboard with standard surf fins, would be able to use those fins to beat the small or highly rockered TT upwind by foiling off of the fins.

Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:03 am
by BigZ
Matteo V wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:58 am

1. Hydrofoil
2. "Old school" raceboard (surfboard with racing fins)
3. Light wind twin-tip
4. Custom or purpose built LW surfboard (Sector series down to SS "Alien Twister")
5. Large standard surfboard
6. Medium to large twin-tip
7. Medium surfboard
8. Small standard surfboard
9. Small or highly rockered TT
#8 and #9 would swap if you used them in light wind. But at the typical wind speeds (high) they are used in, the small surfboard with standard surf fins, would be able to use those fins to beat the small or highly rockered TT upwind by foiling off of the fins.
And what exactly is a "standard surfboard"?

Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:35 am
by early bird2
Matteo V , I think 3 and 4 are very close , the difference is the sector rider needs to know how to tack otherwise the big lwtt wins easy . I don't know if this is because I'm from windsurfing but for me directionals and surfboards are so much more fun even if the lwtt would beat me on an upwind leg because I have missed a tack , I won't trade for a TT .

Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:02 am
by iriejohn
Matteo V wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:58 am
iriejohn wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:22 pm
PullStrings wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:12 pm


I agree
But then again.
Matteo V wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:24 pm
Don't discount a light wind TT! I initially believed the lie about surfboards being better at light winds than TT's. But LWTT's are just superior to even the most light wind directional. At least when comparing equal rider skill. If you are willing to develop a high degree of skill on a light wind directional, you can match and possibly exceed the performance of a light wind TT.
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iriejohn - Read the above a bit more carefully.
Oh, I've read it with the utmost care even moving my finger under the words while my mouth moved. Same result, sorry.
Matteo V wrote:... bla bla bla ...
More obfuscation.





Same result

Re: light wind surfboard VS foil board

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:40 am
by joriws
Starsky wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:16 pm
joriws wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:40 am
Also if you hf strapless it is plowing, nothing more.
Nothing more? Are you foiling yet?
NorCalNomad wrote:Spoken like someone who has not foiled or foiled strapless.
Why it matters to you if I am foiling or not or strapless or not? And to answer yes I've had a foil board for two years already, time flies. I am spreading a descriptive term for certain type of hydrofoil riding (I see most).

-- (For now on "you" means 3rd party passive form, not the two quoted persons or third one I initially answered about using term lawn mowing to make sure that I am not attacking/meaning specific persons.)

I could be a random sun bather and see foiling from the beach and determine that it is plowing like when I first saw my first live hydrofoiler in El Medano in 2012 or 2013 - in the end he was just riding back and forth and not jumping but skillful enough to do foilborne tacks. Remember, I have never talked about rider's skill, just an "outsider's observation" what it looks like and I am giving it one word description. Usually if on strapless hydrofoil you do not jump, that's why I added "hf strapless is plowing as well, nothing more" when you might think it is the king of all disciplines doing trick circles or sitting down on a board. With HF-straps I see Youtube full of HF jumping and with board-offs etc.

So for generic "despite" terms:
  • if foil never leaves water describing term is plowing.
  • if twintip never leaves water you look down and say it is lawn mowing.
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