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Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:02 pm
by chemosavi
Though I haven't personally bought into a hydrofoil aside from the one I made myself, I do wonder about the prices some of these things are selling for.
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2000 euros?
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A very comprehensive big truck fiberglass semi bumper sells for 500 euros that has a lot more material and labor.
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The labor to sew a kite compared to that to CNC an aluminum wing? Even your average twin tip seems more involved from the same standpoint.
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Wary intaresting.......... love to hear some justifications for what seems like a very over priced commodity
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Re: Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:52 pm
by tegirinenashi
Supply-demand? In case if you are not aware, there is a lengthy thread discussing Chinese competition in hydrofoil section. Currently, there are 2 vendors on aliexpress, but I wouldn't be surprised if next year there would be 10.

Re: Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:00 am
by chemosavi
No, I am not aware and a big thanks for that link which was very illuminating. 300 bucks for a foil!
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Just keeping track of the Kardashians takes pretty much all of my available brain cells so your help was invaluable.

Re: Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:49 am
by NorCalNomad
Size of market + supply and demand. You can get motorized vehicles for cheap hydrofoil prices as well...but the size of market on those...

Re: Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:12 am
by FrederikS
So you are comparing dirt cheap mass produce RIM parts to autoclaved pre-preg carbon fiber parts. It is like comparing space crafts to paper planes.
A twin tip is cheap RTM and requires very little lay-up work. You could make cheaper hydrofoils using RTM and get similar results as with pre-preg, but so far non of the companies are investing in it due to low numbers.

Re: Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:04 am
by gmb13
Just want to clear this up. I have ordered those china foils, and you know what, they are not made from Carbon. They are made like the Carafinos where back in the day. Fibreglass with a thin sightlayer of Carbon. Hence the super cheap price on those. They do work, but they are heavy, more flexible and definitely not as durable.

You basically get what you pay for. Those USD 2000 plus foils, like Mikes Lab, Z-Foil, Levitaz, Moses etc. are also not produced in china, and are produced with expensive high end materials.

And once again what people always forget, is the money/time invested in the design and development of the product. The Chinese factory that just copied someone design did not have to do any development work and does not need to recoup the investment, but the brand that actually designed it does. This goes for all products. If the guys who actually design new cool stuff don't earn anything from their product, then they will stop designing them, and this is a bad thing in the long run.


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Gunnar

Re: Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:46 pm
by windmaker
gmb13 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:04 am
Just want to clear this up. I have ordered those china foils, and you know what, they are not made from Carbon. They are made like the Carafinos where back in the day. Fibreglass with a thin sightlayer of Carbon. Hence the super cheap price on those. They do work, but they are heavy, more flexible and definitely not as durable.

You basically get what you pay for. Those USD 2000 plus foils, like Mikes Lab, Z-Foil, Levitaz, Moses etc. are also not produced in china, and are produced with expensive high end materials.

And once again what people always forget, is the money/time invested in the design and development of the product. The Chinese factory that just copied someone design did not have to do any development work and does not need to recoup the investment, but the brand that actually designed it does. This goes for all products. If the guys who actually design new cool stuff don't earn anything from their product, then they will stop designing them, and this is a bad thing in the long run.


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Gunnar
:thumb: :thumb:

Re: Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:56 pm
by revhed
gmb13 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:04 am
they are not made from Carbon. They are made like the Carafinos where back in the day. Fibreglass with a thin sightlayer of Carbon.
Gunnar
Sure hope manual carabelos, alias manny mango carafino, carabella, ect.. evil bad karma catches up with him! :angryfire:
R H

Re: Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:22 pm
by TomW
There's too many assholes alive for karma to be real

Re: Hydro - Foil Prices

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:24 pm
by NorCalNomad
FrederikS wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:12 am
A twin tip is cheap RTM and requires very little lay-up work. You could make cheaper hydrofoils using RTM and get similar results as with pre-preg, but so far non of the companies are investing in it due to low numbers.
TT's are not RTM (resin transfer molding) but compression molding (same tech as skis and snowboards). They do in fact require layup work but not like the negative molds of high end foils.

I'm guessing the cost vs return on RTM molds and machines, probably with engineering/injection limitations is why people aren't RTM'ing fuselage/ wing combos. But the new north foil might be CF reinforced PA...but that's not confirmed.