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Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!

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zloilyoha
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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!!!

Postby zloilyoha » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:40 pm

alexeyga wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:47 pm
zloilyoha wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:46 am
hey! TS! if you cannot understand what`s really going during the wakestyle, try these videos - it`s full of slowmo for better vision :cool2:
Same old:

-a pop

-some variation of 485710ba35398e72fe78cdd296b87e00.jpg

- and a knees-shattering landing

Just slower. What is there to understand?

Can't help admiring the level of athleticism required and these gorgeous knee braces.

If you don't mind me asking, did you get into wakestyle because you actually liked what you saw to the point of "fu@k yeah! I want to do this!!!", or you've only started doing it because the herd was running in that direction???? (типа - ведь чоткие пацаны анхукятся и перехватывают - тоже хочу быть чотким.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :thumb: )
Ha ha!)) Almost a bullseye!))
I am also a чоткий пацан cause I can do some staff)))
I am doing it cause I like it, also if it were so easy everybody would))
And one more thing - you can easily use your unhooked skills and feelings in an other styles kinda bigair while this shit does not work in another side.
Soo, let the wakestyle hype continues! 😱😂

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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!!!

Postby Osprey1 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:50 pm

I love air style, foiling, strapless and wakestyle. The appeal of which is that to learn certain tricks and to land them consistently one must crash hundreds of times. The challenge of learning a difficult handle pass trick and then mastering it gives great reward. Learning a strapless back roll might only take 30 crashes before you land one whereas I’ve tried to stick an Smobe for five years and haven’t landed one yet. Sometimes hard slams and pain are involved and these only add to the challenge and the reward.

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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!

Postby swimmer » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:31 am

Osprey1 wrote: I love air style, foiling, strapless and wakestyle. The appeal of which is that to learn certain tricks and to land them consistently one must crash hundreds of times. The challenge of learning a difficult handle pass trick and then mastering it gives great reward. Learning a strapless back roll might only take 30 crashes before you land one whereas I’ve tried to stick an Smobe for five years and haven’t landed one yet. Sometimes hard slams and pain are involved and these only add to the challenge and the reward.
Totally!!

I love all the styles. The prefect kite day for me would be a wave session in the morning, a freestyle session in the early afternoon and a big-air kiteloop session at sunset. :D :D

By the way the term "wakestyle" is used loosely but it is not the same thing as freestyle even though they share many of the same tricks (obviously there is overlap). Wakestyle tries to intimate wakeboarding and cable wakeboarding more with tricks off features and keeping the kite low. Doing tricks like dangle passes and kiteloop handlepass would not be considered wakestyle.
Last edited by swimmer on Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!!!

Postby downunder » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:24 am

KimAndersen wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:19 pm
downunder wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:15 am
^
Ok, so you did not answer, "do you or do you not slam the kite more often with unhooked moves?"


Nope, the ws is commonly done on flat water, not staying in control 99% of time when they crash. Worse, the kite is what? Released. How do you control released kite is magic.

Why? Why do you think that we should stop gen....locally? The above is a fact, when you do unhooked move and crash, the kite is not controllable. When hooked, crash, kite stays unreleased, there is a chance to recover the kite.
Valid globally.
Just saw you wrote af few more points that I am not sure I addressed.

First I don't see how you came to the conclussion that unhooked moves is done more or less in flat water than hooked moves? Flat water spots have many kiters doing hooked moves as well, and a lot of kiters do both hooked and unhooked moves. At the same time a lot of kiters do unhooked moves of wave kickers.

Next you say "not staying in control 99% of time when they crash", again is this specific kiters at your local spots? Because here I would say kiters who do unhooked moves stay in control in most of the crashes. This is because when you start unhooking, you quickly learn that a kite moving around the window is not disirable, so you learn to keep your hands centered and to let go of the bar in time. At the same time when you start to unhook, you also learn to rig your leash either suicide or now a days semi-suicide. The result being that there is no steering of the kite, it just stays put, and when you do let go of the bar it just hangs there drifting on the leash until you pull it back in without hitting the water.

The same cannot be said for a hooked jump where you pendulum under the kite and end up in front of the kite with completely slacked lines. I don't know if you have tried this yet, but trust me, it is seriously scary for both yourself and everyone around you, because there is absolutely no control of anything.

So you when you say:

"Why? Why do you think that we should stop gen....locally? The above is a fact, when you do unhooked move and crash, the kite is not controllable. When hooked, crash, kite stays unreleased, there is a chance to recover the kite."

This is not factual at all, and this is exactly why we should stop generalizing.

My discription above may not apply to your local spot, there might be idiots unhooking their kites with absolute no control and crashing them on you all the time, I would have no idea. But please watch out stating that something is a fact and saying that this is the case 99% of the time. My local experiences might be the last percentage, but I highly doubt it.
"we should stop generalizing." - this is far from reality. Very far. The generalization is all around us, and it will stay like that till the end of time. In general, with unhooked moves, the kite is released, and as such, it does what it wants.

Why flat water? Because this is the place everyone sees them. Simple. We sometimes looove to be seen. Not really a rocket surgery. Look at the FB. Generalization? Again, the Facebook at.al is showing different picture. Even this forum is here because we love to tell what we think! We are "showing up" in one way or another.

I can only talk about what I see. The 99% is just a quite, stop jumping from a chair, this is not a PhD thesis. I could say any percent, it.does.not.matter. What matters is that ws ppl on MY local endanger other kiters. Period. This matter to me. I couldn't care less for other spots in other countries, not paying my taxes there.

To be fair, if anyone is combining "all styles" this probably means being average in all of them. Toby is not unhooking and is a top class hooked rider. Does he never unhook? Maybe he does. Duno. I just made a generalization then.

There will be no consensus at the end of this thread, no conclusions either. We all have our mind already set on the subject.
Last edited by downunder on Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!

Postby Toby » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:27 am

Disagreed on the flat water part.
Flat water is a different world for powered unhooked, jumping high and slide tricks.

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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!

Postby downunder » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:35 am

Not sure I follow? When I look at Youri (very rare I watch anything) he is always on flat water for ws.

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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!!!

Postby NorCalNomad » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:04 am

downunder wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:15 am
The above is a fact, when you do unhooked move and crash, the kite is not controllable. When hooked, crash, kite stays unreleased, there is a chance to recover the kite.
Valid globally.
Not valid globally because what you typed is wrong.

Likely it's the view of someone who's never unhooked properly and crashed.

Crashing unhooked is no different than crashing hooked in and letting go of your bar. Sometimes your kite stays in the air, sometimes it comes down to the water slow, sometimes it comes down fast. The only difference is that you bar is further away from you.

Also, you should regulate your beach better if you have guys doing tricks in the launch/ landing area. I'll yell at anyone who is doing dumb shit at my local spots in the landing area. Once they stop I'll inform them of why they were being a dumb ass/ threat to safety and be on my unhooked/boot-ed/stapless/foil way.
swimmer wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:31 am
I love all the styles. The prefect kite day for me would be a wave session in the morning, a freestyle session in the early afternoon and a big-air kiteloop session at sunset. :D :D
That would be a dope day.

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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!

Postby Flyboy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:23 am

Seems to me the basic appeal of kitesurfing comes down to two distinct elements: carving & jumping. At my local spots practically everybody is riding surfboards, mostly strapless, so it's rare to see anyone jumping, let alone wake styling. That's because carving is inherently a beautiful sensation - lots of sports celebrate the feeling of carving, from skateboarding, to skiing & snowboarding, surfing, & many others. Carving on a wave is even better & riding waves is endlessly varied, as every wave is fascinatingly & unpredictably unique. Recently, foiling has added a new dimension to the joy of carving.

Jumping is the other basic thrill that kiteboarding created. Big air , mega looping, air-style, wake style - all are primarily concerned with doing stuff in the air rather than on the water. Basic jumping is fun - it's one of the things that was first explored when kiteboarding was invented - & not that difficult. Wake style can be very demanding - it takes A LOT of practice, a lot of trial & error (& crashing) to perfect a trick. I suspect most kiters don't get enough time on the water to make spending a lot of time crashing appealing - they'd rather spend the time enjoying being out on the water.

Similarly, you won't see a lot of skiers & snowboarders doing triple flips off jumps, or in a half pipe at your average hill - again it's because most skiers & snowboarders get enough pleasure from just being on the mountain & carving turns (you'll see more "freestyle" activity on small hills that don't offer an impressive downhill experience, but can put together a decent terrain park & half pipe).

It's true that there's always been a disproportionate amount of advertising hype around wake style, that is, relative to the amount of kiters actually doing it, however, it does seem to me that the focus has shifted in recent years to include more of a focus on surfing, strapless freestyle, big air/mega looping & foiling.

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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!!!

Postby downunder » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:33 am

NorCalNomad wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:04 am
downunder wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:15 am
The above is a fact, when you do unhooked move and crash, the kite is not controllable. When hooked, crash, kite stays unreleased, there is a chance to recover the kite.
Valid globally.
Not valid globally because what you typed is wrong.

Likely it's the view of someone who's never unhooked properly and crashed.

Crashing unhooked is no different than crashing hooked in and letting go of your bar. Sometimes your kite stays in the air, sometimes it comes down to the water slow, sometimes it comes down fast. The only difference is that you bar is further away from you.

Also, you should regulate your beach better if you have guys doing tricks in the launch/ landing area. I'll yell at anyone who is doing dumb shit at my local spots in the landing area. Once they stop I'll inform them of why they were being a dumb ass/ threat to safety and be on my unhooked/boot-ed/stapless/foil way.
swimmer wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:31 am
I love all the styles. The prefect kite day for me would be a wave session in the morning, a freestyle session in the early afternoon and a big-air kiteloop session at sunset. :D :D
That would be a dope day.
Well, as I see it you just wrote that it IS different. Huge difference. Be fair and say, can you reach the bar? Particularly on a long leash? Some just loove super long leashes for you know what. Man, I've seen kites ripped from TE to LE with crashed unhooked moves. C'ish kites. That's how they slam, with that force, I feel sorry for the kites. Really. Remember, I do 100-200 sessions per year, and seeing a lot.

The second statement in bold. Really? You would do that? They must love you there :) Earnestly, I would love to see how you look, and if you would do that if tiny, skinny and in overall small built person faced with 90kg bull...

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Re: Kite companies - please stop the wakestyle hype!!!

Postby KimAndersen » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:06 am

downunder wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:24 am
KimAndersen wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:19 pm
downunder wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:15 am
^
Ok, so you did not answer, "do you or do you not slam the kite more often with unhooked moves?"


Nope, the ws is commonly done on flat water, not staying in control 99% of time when they crash. Worse, the kite is what? Released. How do you control released kite is magic.

Why? Why do you think that we should stop gen....locally? The above is a fact, when you do unhooked move and crash, the kite is not controllable. When hooked, crash, kite stays unreleased, there is a chance to recover the kite.
Valid globally.
Just saw you wrote af few more points that I am not sure I addressed.

First I don't see how you came to the conclussion that unhooked moves is done more or less in flat water than hooked moves? Flat water spots have many kiters doing hooked moves as well, and a lot of kiters do both hooked and unhooked moves. At the same time a lot of kiters do unhooked moves of wave kickers.

Next you say "not staying in control 99% of time when they crash", again is this specific kiters at your local spots? Because here I would say kiters who do unhooked moves stay in control in most of the crashes. This is because when you start unhooking, you quickly learn that a kite moving around the window is not disirable, so you learn to keep your hands centered and to let go of the bar in time. At the same time when you start to unhook, you also learn to rig your leash either suicide or now a days semi-suicide. The result being that there is no steering of the kite, it just stays put, and when you do let go of the bar it just hangs there drifting on the leash until you pull it back in without hitting the water.

The same cannot be said for a hooked jump where you pendulum under the kite and end up in front of the kite with completely slacked lines. I don't know if you have tried this yet, but trust me, it is seriously scary for both yourself and everyone around you, because there is absolutely no control of anything.

So you when you say:

"Why? Why do you think that we should stop gen....locally? The above is a fact, when you do unhooked move and crash, the kite is not controllable. When hooked, crash, kite stays unreleased, there is a chance to recover the kite."

This is not factual at all, and this is exactly why we should stop generalizing.

My discription above may not apply to your local spot, there might be idiots unhooking their kites with absolute no control and crashing them on you all the time, I would have no idea. But please watch out stating that something is a fact and saying that this is the case 99% of the time. My local experiences might be the last percentage, but I highly doubt it.
"we should stop generalizing." - this is far from reality. Very far. The generalization is all around us, and it will stay like that till the end of time. In general, with unhooked moves, the kite is released, and as such, it does what it wants.

Why flat water? Because this is the place everyone sees them. Simple. We sometimes looove to be seen. Not really a rocket surgery. Look at the FB. Generalization? Again, the Facebook at.al is showing different picture. Even this forum is here because we love to tell what we think! We are "showing up" in one way or another.

I can only talk about what I see. The 99% is just a quite, stop jumping from a chair, this is not a PhD thesis. I could say any percent, it.does.not.matter. What matters is that ws ppl on MY local endanger other kiters. Period. This matter to me. I couldn't care less for other spots in other countries, not paying my taxes there.

To be fair, if anyone is combining "all styles" this probably means being average in all of them. Toby is not unhooking and is a top class hooked rider. Does he never unhook? Maybe he does. Duno. I just made a generalization then.

There will be no consensus at the end of this thread, no conclusions either. We all have our mind already set on the subject.
I agree that generalization is all around, but there is no purpose adding to as it serves absolutely no purpose.

you say:

"In general, with unhooked moves, the kite is released, and as such, it does what it wants."

No actually it doesn't, the kite has no will on its own. If you read my previous post, you would see why, so will repeat it here.

"Because here I would say kiters who do unhooked moves stay in control in most of the crashes. This is because when you start unhooking, you quickly learn that a kite moving around the window is not disirable, so you learn to keep your hands centered and to let go of the bar in time. At the same time when you start to unhook, you also learn to rig your leash either suicide or now a days semi-suicide. The result being that there is no steering of the kite, it just stays put, and when you do let go of the bar it just hangs there drifting on the leash until you pull it back in without hitting the water."

This might be hard to comprehend if you have never unhooked before, but try it and you will understand. First make sure you leash is attached semi-suicide, so the kite doesn't flag when you unhook, and kite trimmed so it doesn't backstall. Then just stand ind the water, kite around 1 or 11 center your hands on the bar with your forefinges crossing over the bartrow. Now let go off the bar, you will see that the kite just hangs there or slowly falls towards the surface. You can quickly pull the bar back in by the leash and you are ready to ride of.

Then you write:

"Why flat water? Because this is the place everyone sees them. Simple. We sometimes looove to be seen. Not really a rocket surgery. Look at the FB. Generalization? Again, the Facebook at.al is showing different picture. Even this forum is here because we love to tell what we think! We are "showing up" in one way or another."

Agree most people love to be seen, but that goes for everybody not just people unhooking.

Next is:

"I can only talk about what I see. The 99% is just a quite, stop jumping from a chair, this is not a PhD thesis. I could say any percent, it.does.not.matter. What matters is that ws ppl on MY local endanger other kiters. Period. This matter to me. I couldn't care less for other spots in other countries, not paying my taxes there."

Exactly you can only talk about what you see, but then please don't state something as a FACT on a global forum, simply because you have no idea if the is a fact globally. This is by no means a PhD thesis, so lots of room for views and opinions, just be clear about it, and don't state something as factual unless it really is a fact. And if you could just say any percentage, then don't use percentages in debates. Using random numbers is just silly, and doesn't add anything to a constructive debate.

Lastly you write:

"To be fair, if anyone is combining "all styles" this probably means being average in all of them. Toby is not unhooking and is a top class hooked rider. Does he never unhook? Maybe he does. Duno. I just made a generalization then."

I tend to agree that combining all styles it is likely you would be average at all of them, you can even build on this by argueing that not focusing on one style gives you less time for training on this exact style. As this is a very general statement not only relevant for kiting you might even be able to find data to back up the statement. Would I say it is fact and that it is the case for 99% kiters doing all styles, nope because I really don't know. Riding waves might help me with better kite control especially on small kites and I might be able transfer these skills to my high wind freestyle. A rider like Kevin Langeree would be an obvious example of a kiter doing many styles but being above average in all of them, at least from a competitive point of view.

Toby is not unhooking is pretty factual as he himself has stated this several times, If he has never unhooked in the past I don't know but Toby can easily clear this up for us. If Toby is a top class hooked rider, depends on how we diffine of a top class hooked rider. Is it rider that has won many competitions, then I don't think he is, do I know this for a fact, no I don't, he might have won lots of competitions, again this can easily validated by Toby himself. Do I subjectively think Toby is a top class hooked rider, compairing him by standards set by me to other riders I have seen, OH YES in my opinion his hooked skills are amazing and wish I would be able to do just ar margine of what he does.


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