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Recommendations for a kite

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hgrimberg
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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby hgrimberg » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:13 pm

jeromeL wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:50 pm
Im same weight.
My 12 m range is 11 to 25 knots but usually over 22 i prefer 9m unless I want to boost higher ;)
I would say ideal on twintip for some standard trick and free ride is 17/18 knots
On surfboard ideal range is probably 14/15.

Honestly those chart aren't that accurate some guys like more power than others... especially te chart aroun 11/12 knots since you can use anything from 12m to 18m its quite subjective.
I am bit disoriented. When I read about the Neo on the North website, it says that It is: VERY POWERFUL (CHOOSE ONE SIZE SMALLER) BUT WITH GOOD DEPOWER. I checked on the Sizefinder for the Juice 15 and it says it is ok for 7 to 15 kts on a Twin tip board, whereas the Neo 12 is ok from 11 to 15 kts.

knotwindy
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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby knotwindy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:23 pm

You are way overthinking this and putting way to much faith in a chart that gives just a rough idea to start with. Listen to the advice or go ride a lot but stop looking at that damn chart.

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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby Matteo V » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:07 pm

Yup, charts are pretty worthless.

With only 2 variables, you cannot select a kite. And all those charts give you is "wind speed" vs kite "published flat area".

Here are some more variables you need to add to that chart before you rely on it.

1. Aspect ratio
2. Projected area
3. Cord line
4. Camber line
5. Ratio's of the above
6. Front bridal placement
7. Steering line attachment placements

And I am sure I am missing about 4 to 5 others.

So you either get a "10 deminsional" graph, or a "choose your own adventure" chart.

Those who have compared, and their advice is valuable. Less that, you may have to blindly buy a kite with a good return policy.

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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby jeromeL » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:18 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:07 pm
Yup, charts are pretty worthless.

With only 2 variables, you cannot select a kite. And all those charts give you is "wind speed" vs kite "published flat area".

Here are some more variables you need to add to that chart before you rely on it.

1. Aspect ratio
2. Projected area
3. Cord line
4. Camber line
5. Ratio's of the above
6. Front bridal placement
7. Steering line attachment placements

And I am sure I am missing about 4 to 5 others.

So you either get a "10 deminsional" graph, or a "choose your own adventure" chart.

Those who have compared, and their advice is valuable. Less that, you may have to blindly buy a kite with a good return policy.
You also forget wind speed 14 knots depending how gusty or if there is wind shadow nearby, water current and other can be very different..

The other day I unpacked my 9m in a spot I don't go often in that wind direction, wind was really strong had to work hard to walk up the beach with kite in hand, then when I launched it couldn't feel any power, we were near some dunes and some forest on the other side of bay, so wind quality wasn't great, even though we felt it was strong once kite was flying nothing...

Bottom line only way to know which kite to rig is to fly it around... Unless you know your spot and wind configuration, helps to ask the local guys what they think.

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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby Mossy 757 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:22 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:07 pm
Yup, charts are pretty worthless.

With only 2 variables, you cannot select a kite. And all those charts give you is "wind speed" vs kite "published flat area".

Here are some more variables you need to add to that chart before you rely on it.

1. Aspect ratio
2. Projected area
3. Cord line
4. Camber line
5. Ratio's of the above
6. Front bridal placement
7. Steering line attachment placements

And I am sure I am missing about 4 to 5 others.

So you either get a "10 deminsional" graph, or a "choose your own adventure" chart.

Those who have compared, and their advice is valuable. Less that, you may have to blindly buy a kite with a good return policy.
8. Designers competence in engineering a performative offering
9. Designers optimizing their product offerings to conform to your riding style
10. Manufacturing practices produce a reliably high quality product
11. Updates since previous (cheaper) model provide substantive performance improvements

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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby Flyboy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:46 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:23 pm
You are way overthinking this .
Here's what you should do:

If you started windsurfing in 1978, I'm guessing you're not a youngster. Forget twin tips - you don't need one if you're not going to do unhooked & handle passes. Get a good, flattish rockered directional, like a North Nugget, or something similar*. This will feel more familiar to you than a TT, will get you up planning earlier, & will remain more fun in lighter wind than a TT. You'll have to learn to gybe it, but just as in windsurfing, that's half the fun of being on a directional & it probably won't take you that long to figure out.

Get a 12m kite with good low end (I haven't used a Neo, so I can't comment specifically on that, but yes, there is a significant difference between kites when i comes to low end power). A kite like that with a directional will be good for 12 knots - 20 knots, with the ideal range from around 14 knots to 18 knots. That's where you want to be when you're learning to kite. A bigger kite will be slower & uncomfortable to use once you get over 15 knots. Once you get more accomplished you will be able to decide whether to get more stuff - smaller kites, more surfy board for more wind & serious wave riding, perhaps strapless.

*Even better if you can get a board with two front straps, like a windsurfer - that's what I use - & will feel natural to you & is great for jumping.

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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby PullStrings » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:35 pm

hgrimberg wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:13 pm
jeromeL wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:50 pm
Im same weight.
My 12 m range is 11 to 25 knots but usually over 22 i prefer 9m unless I want to boost higher ;)
I would say ideal on twintip for some standard trick and free ride is 17/18 knots
On surfboard ideal range is probably 14/15.

Honestly those chart aren't that accurate some guys like more power than others... especially te chart aroun 11/12 knots since you can use anything from 12m to 18m its quite subjective.
I am bit disoriented. When I read about the Neo on the North website, it says that It is: VERY POWERFUL (CHOOSE ONE SIZE SMALLER) BUT WITH GOOD DEPOWER. I checked on the Sizefinder for the Juice 15 and it says it is ok for 7 to 15 kts on a Twin tip board, whereas the Neo 12 is ok from 11 to 15 kts.
Forget Sizefinder... my girlfriend on surfboard at 51-55 kg range for 11-15 knots and North recommends a 8 sqm !!!....BS...she rode the 12 NEO at a recent demo and it was the ideal size she said
She's been kitesurfing 15 years...she's an ex-windsurfer ...she was riding at demo a Quad fins 18 1/4" X 5'6" surfb X 2 1/8"
For a twin tip North recommends a 9 sqm !!..........she would be so bored on that size in 11-15 knots
An average wind speed of 13 knots it's not a strong at all

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purdyd
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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby purdyd » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:13 am

hgrimberg wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:18 am
I am still learning kitesurfing coming from windsurfing. I actually only want to use the kite when it is not windy enough for windsurfing so, I want a kite for when the wind is less than 15 knots. I weight 176 lbs. I purchased a North Neo 12 2017 but I am worried that it won't be enough for less than 15 knots... On the specs from North it was saying that it was better to choose 1 or 2 sizes less since the Neos were a lot more powerful than all the other kites from North. I was at first about to buy a Dice 13 but after reading that from North I chose the Neo 12. I still can change it since I still didn't use it... Any recommendation?
You also have to consider the board that you ride. Directional surfboard or twintip. You would likely get more low end out of a surfboard but there are also some big ass flat twin tips that plane up pretty quickly in light wind.

And of course, as you get better, you get more range out of your kite being able to move (sine) it around more, like pumping your sail windsurfing. Sometimes those big kites offer a diminishing return as they don't move as fast and are too heavy to really fly well. Youl'll notice the foilers are going to small single, no strut, or ram air foils because they don't need as much pull to be planing and the kites will fly in the light wind.

I personally think the big traditional kites are better for big people.

And it can depend on you beach. If you have room to go down wind, you can go out in lighter wind. And of course when you first start out, staying up wind will be difficult.

The windsurf foil boards look intriguing if you want to stay just windsurfing.

Otherwise I would echo what others have said, you will likely find you kitesurf more and windsurf less or possibly not at all after awhile.

Sometimes it is just the challenge of the thing and the feeling of making progress. Anyone who learned to waterstart and gybe windsurfing is not a quitter and relishes a challenge. I see a lot of the foilers who started out as light wind only are no out there in more and more wind.

So yeah, going down to the beach with your 12m and a bigger board and saying 15 knots, is kiting weather and a good time to learn sounds reasonable. I think a few of us got our start that way. But after awhile it might become 20 knots...... :D

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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby Archer77 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:01 pm

hgrimberg also if for learning to kite doesn't matter so much now, what kiting style you will be interested after?
wave riding if I understand correctly, right?
because after you have learned if you want to kite wave riding you will have to use smaller possible kite size for the current wind and have a wave kite (as Neo is), probably for this reason you are getting confused by wind ranges, the wind ranges suggested for the Neo based on your weight are almost probably intended for wave riding...

Now that's good that wave kites are among the ones that are good also to start, in a little bigger size that the one you will need to wave ride

In any case as told from all the good advice before mine Kite Wind Ranges published from producer are not always perfect, also because as already told it's not only the weight of the rider to change the game but a lot the size and type of the board and the style the kite is intended for

ABOUT a kite smaller(12mt) or bigger(17m) in the 10 to 15knots range, speaking about learning (so freeride style normally intended) what I have understood reading a lot on this forum and from my experience (not so much I'm just something more than a beginner) are this points:

- smaller kites relaunch better with low wind, useful when lulls make it drop in the water
- smaller kites, as a 12mt, are good to learn in the 15-20 knots wind range, not in the 10-15knots, in that range could be good for wave riding when you have already something more than basic skills, or for freeride with a little more skill or with a very big twintip board (in jargon called Door) or with a big surfboard
- bigger kites are heavier and much more difficult to relaunch (sub 12knots) but give you more power and for learning (in the 12-16 knots wind range) are better
- some new bigger kite, have very big wind range and are much faster moving than old bigger kites (my Ozone Zephyr V5 is it)

I have tried the North Juice and I didn't liked it, as personal advice if you want a big light wind kite with big wind range go for the Ozone Zephyr V5 also if have 5 bladders instead the 3 of the Juice(means more weight), is fast as a 13mt, it's easy, and have very big wind range up to 20 knots without becoming a truck

hope I have clarified some points that might be involuntary escaped

p.s. now obviously if you already have a 12mt, to learn start at least at 14/15 knots not less, far better with flat shallow water

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Re: Recommendations for a kite

Postby RadDrDuke » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:50 am

Definitely don't look at those charts, they are a joke and it's a wonder they still publish them due to the aforementioned numerous flaws.

To address your initial plan: kitesurfing when the wind is "less than 15 knots" sucks unless you are riding a hydrofoil board which is a bit tough to start on as a beginner.

My advice: give up windsurfing, buy a 12m freeride kite from one of the big manufacturers and start kiting when it's 15-20knots, you will love it 100% guarantee. Then get into hydrofoiling and you will be having a blast on the water in wind from 8knots to 30+knots


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