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Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

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alamos_kiter
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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby alamos_kiter » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:17 am

Nice one, those are the most common PITA situations.
grigorib wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:30 pm
let's touch on some questionable cases:
1. - a kiter launched a kite and hangs out at the water edge or on the beach within line length from water with kite in the air
2. - a kiter is riding in your wake and limits your maneuvering
3. - a kiter is less experienced/learning and is obviously uncapable to allow right of way fast
4. - a kiter in front of you switches direction to starboard but wihout looking and is on collision course
5. - there's a riding pattern clockwise or counterclockwise in a slick or behind jetty and a rider goes starboard but against the pattern
6. - an IKO instructor brings a newbie student to a crowded launch/spot with a defined riding pattern and start teaching right there
7. - toeside rider right leg/hand forward is not a starboard tack

Common sense says "stay safe and avoid" and "talk to them". What about the rules?
1: Being on the beach is not covered by COLREGS, so: kiter's an idiot, but no rules apply (1a COLREGS). Tell kiter to get on the water or down his kite.
2: Classic one, riding up on you. Following kiter is to keep safe distance so as to avoid collision (COLREGS 8c, d)
3: Always avoid danger, even if this is against COLREGS (2b COLREGS), so: give way to noob.
4: Kiter in front has to keep lookout (COLREGS 5); once on collision course, see COLREGS 12 depending on tacks.
5: Special rules come before COLREGS (COLREGS 1b analog)
6: According to COLREGS, nothing impedes you to use a water vessel limited in maneuverability (here: noob kiter) if there's no restriction to do so. Noob has the right to be there, but instructor's an idiot for putting him there.
7: starboard / port is defined by wind direction and vessel tack. Toeside doesn't matter

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby Lokihel » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:59 am

The one rule that dominates every other in sailing:
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room (a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and (b) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury

The problem is that more and more kiteboarders have no nautical background, they just go straight into kiteboarding without having ever sailed or surfed. Nobody ever taught them the rules, so they don't know any better.

The biggest problem is still the lack of common sense, and I have no idea where it comes from.

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby alamos_kiter » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:13 pm

Well said Lokihel

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby vela99 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:46 pm

One situation I come across occasionally on a crowded day is that as I approach shore I take a look backwards before initiating a jibe to learn that close behind me lee wards another kiter approaches the shore leaving me without any options but to stop. You can take two views on this; 1. I should have anticipated this and avoid the situation to begin with or 2. the kiter following close up lee wards should realize the situation and immediately maneuver to allow me to turn. Which would be the right way to look at this?

Anther situation I come across occasionally in small onshore wave conditions with waves coming in very short sequence. Two kiters surf two consecutive waves with the risk of kites or lines actually crossing during bottom turns and top turns. Does the kiter surfing the 2nd wave, the one coming behind give way to the guy on the first wave in front? I guess so.


Thanks for any comments on this.

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby Matteo V » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:26 pm

Thanks to alamos_kiter for accurately posting a response. Now watch as I expand his explanation with my gift of TL:DR - explanations given in red

grigorib wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:30 pm
let's touch on some questionable cases:
- a kiter launched a kite and hangs out at the water edge or on the beach within line length from water with kite in the air This kiter does not have the right of way as a vessel. As the definition of right of way is "hold course vessel" and that kiter is not a vessel as they are not holding course. That kiter is an obstruction and you must avoid just like a swimmer or floating log. If that kiter intends to kite, and not just sit in the water, then that kiter would be an anchored or drifting vessel and would have priority over any vessel underway. A personal interaction is the proper course to inform the offender of the issue they present to the kiteboarding area.
- a kiter is riding in your wake and limits your maneuvering You must look behind you before you jibe/tack in open water. If clear, you can turn around. If not. You must alter course (upwind/downwind) to avoid collision during the jibe/tack. If the following kiter matches your course change, they are intent on causing a collision and are in the wrong. This is a good place to signal what you want to do. If no response, again, that kiter is intent on causing a collision.
- a kiter is less experienced/learning and is obviously uncapable to allow right of way fast The less experienced kiter is the less maneuverable vessel and has the right of way in all cases. What is the current course that an inexperienced kiter must hold - flopping around in a small area likely falling off constantly and crashing their kite. You must give them room to do this as they have the right of way and you do not. Any kiter from intermediate to pro can tell an inexperienced kiter in 4-5 glances. If you are complaining about you having interactions with inexperienced kiters, you may also be inexperienced enough to cause some issues.
- a kiter in front of you switches direction to starboard but wihout looking and is on collision course If they did not have to change course due to an obstruction, no-go zone, or running in to shore, then they are in the wrong. If they turned into you because of an obstruction, then you are in the wrong. If you noticed that they jibed right in front of you (not because of an object) once, it is your duty to not follow them so closely as that is your proper course of action to avoid a future collision. - this aint racing! If you notice a kook, that kook is to be avoided by you.
- there's a riding pattern clockwise or counterclockwise in a slick or behind jetty and a rider goes starboard but against the pattern Again, as we are not racing, this would be just like a channel marker situation. For a vessel to safely navigate a channel or shipping lane, that vessel must follow the approved course. OR think of it this way. If you are coming into a narrow channel that does not allow a tack or jibe while in the channel, the starboard right of way is no longer in effect. There are things that negate the starboard right of way that are location specific. This is one of them.
- an IKO instructor brings a newbie student to a crowded launch/spot with a defined riding pattern and start teaching right there Even with an instructor close at hand, the student is less maneuverable than you and you must yield the right of way to them. If you have a problem with this, walk into the shop or lesson center and complain - probably won't work. However, if it is a non affiliated instructor or the students "friend" teaching them, talk to that instructor. Politely ask them to go to the more beginner friendly spot the next day - but please let them continue for that day if you feel it is a safe situation. You don't want the newbie thinking advanced kiters are a-holes. This could lead to that newb not wanting to interact with other kiters and not asking about unfamiliar locations. This avoidance of seeking information is likely to cause an incident that gets them killed or a good spot banned from kiteboarding activities. IF YOU DO NOT KNOW OF A MORE BEGINNER FRIENDLY SPOT FOR THEM TO GO TO THE NEXT DAY, THEN THIS IS WHERE THEY SHOULD BE AND YOU NEED TO DEAL WITH IT. Beginners take priority over experienced kiters at safe locations.
- toeside rider right leg/hand forward is not a starboard tack alamos_kiter has put it in much more plain language than I could - "starboard / port is defined by wind direction and vessel tack. Toeside doesn't matter" If you are on a sailboat, normally you would want your body (and it's weight) on the windward side. If you are in light winds, you could move over to the leeward side without affecting performance, but this does not change the fact that your vessel is still on a tack defined by the wind direction and the boats direction of travel.

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby Matteo V » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:17 pm

vela99 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:46 pm
One situation I come across occasionally on a crowded day is that as I approach shore I take a look backwards before initiating a jibe to learn that close behind me lee wards another kiter approaches the shore leaving me without any options but to stop. The kiter that forced you in is wrong.

Anther situation I come across occasionally in small onshore wave conditions with waves coming in very short sequence. Two kiters surf two consecutive waves with the risk of kites or lines actually crossing during bottom turns and top turns. Does the kiter surfing the 2nd wave, the one coming behind give way to the guy on the first wave in front? I guess so. This can be a special circumstance that applies to only kiteboarding, though it does not conflict with maritime law as no vessels other than kiteboarders utilize the surf break (ok..kayaks, SUP's are now vessels, JetSurfboards, standup jetskis [only one with more maneuverability than a kiter]. But for the most part, this is a kiter on kiter interaction. And because of this, the widely agreed upon kitesurfing specific rule is that a rider on an incoming wave, while riding that wave, has the right of way.
So lets define this rule (please note there is no rule book on this, so this rule is an interpretation of local customs, and the majority agreement from forums):
(1&2 change rule of "out going has right of way over incoming")
1. If a kitesurfer is on an incoming wave and a kitesurfer is just heading out form shore into the water, outgoing kiter must yield for the kiter ON THE WAVE (I do not particularly agree with this one but abide by it).
2. If a kitesurfer is "under way" and heading out after coming to the inside from a wave ride, but a rider is ON A WAVE coming in, the outgoing kiter must yield to the kiter ON THE WAVE.

(3, 4, & 5 illustrate when the rule of outgoing has the right of way over incoming is "not changed")
3. If a kiter ON THE WAVE disengages the wave, or the wave closes out becoming small enough to ride back out over, the kiter that was on the wave now yields right of way back to the outgoing kiter - and must turn around to head back out. That kiter previously on the wave can re-assume the right of way (head back in) if faced with an incoming wave that cannot be safely gone over. This helps avoid an outgoing rider pushing another outgoing rider into something that they will fall on, lose their board, and become much more of an obstacle in the break than if the rider on the inside just waits on the inside.
4. If the incoming rider is NOT ON A WAVE, but rather between sets/crests, that rider does not have the right of way over an outgoing rider. Only a kiter ON THE WAVE CAN change the rule.
5. An incoming rider ON THE WAVE does NOT HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY to force the kiter on the inside to retreat to shore or run aground in shallow water. Wave or not, you must not run another kiter out of the water or cause them to run aground/stop and stand (I do stop out of courtesy on most occasions, but this should not be the rule).

This response would also be up for debate on the proper course of action.

So the answer to your specific question about 2 kiters on consecutive waves is as follows (as i see it). Both have equal right to ride the wave, but must avoid collision. Personally, I only ride a wave in tandem with people I know. But with consecutive waves, I just do not have a good record of riding and not having to change my ride because of the guy on the next wave out or the next wave in.

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby grigorib » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:03 pm

vela99 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:46 pm
One situation I come across occasionally on a crowded day is that as I approach shore I take a look backwards before initiating a jibe to learn that close behind me lee wards another kiter approaches the shore leaving me without any options but to stop. You can take two views on this; 1. I should have anticipated this and avoid the situation to begin with or 2. the kiter following close up lee wards should realize the situation and immediately maneuver to allow me to turn. Which would be the right way to look at this?
First thing first - the guy behind you should not be in your wake or pushing you onshore
Few things I would do then:
- raise my back hand and do a rotation gesture trying to communicate "I'm going to turn, get out of my way"
- if I'm an ass I make a jerk kite movement to zenith combined with sheeting out and let the guy following me to freak the hell out for a second and then I keep going on my original course. A bit like same to touching brake pedal to flash the red lights to the tailgater.
- I assess his kite and the rider position and either aggressively downloop and turn downwind of him or textbook scenario raise my kite and turn staying upwind of him. If you're faster and more efficient rider you simply have more options than the other one.

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby grigorib » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:30 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:26 pm
Thanks to alamos_kiter for accurately posting a response. Now watch as I expand his explanation with my gift of TL:DR - explanations given in red
grigorib wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:30 pm
...
...
Nice writeup. I noticed most of right of way instructions don't emphasize students as a less-capable and slower vessel with a right of way.

Now more interesting question - how far the "less-maneuverable vessel" rule does extend?
- imagine someone experienced in freeride picks a challenging, racing foil with the longest mast and it sucks for him for first few sessions at least
- a foiler is approaching landing spot over long stretch of shallower-than-mast water and has certainly less freedom on water than anyone heading out, launching or standing in water. He can certainly bail out and walk but it would only block the launching guys for longer.

another few:
- is someone boosting long, floaty jumps is it a vessel at all while airborne? And all the jumping from/to channels, over land, over someone's lines etc...
- what are right of way rules for riding at night on in fog, with limited visibility

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby alamos_kiter » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:55 pm

Common sense goes a long way when dealing with noobs: keep clear or untangle your lines :-)

Bad maneuverability has got to be obvious, or announced. An empty supertanker is difficult to steer and obvious, and a dredge or fishing vessel has respective signs hoisted to make it clear for everybody. Kiters are not so obvious, so the foiler running onto a shallow can't rely to be given way I'd say.

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby jeromeL » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:37 pm

Lol some local has issues with gath full face helmet which fog and then has limited visibility making tangle with others.
So avoid gath full face helmet , limited visibility rule apply ;)


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