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Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

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vela99
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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby vela99 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:13 pm

grigorib wrote:
vela99 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:46 pm
One situation I come across occasionally on a crowded day is that as I approach shore I take a look backwards before initiating a jibe to learn that close behind me lee wards another kiter approaches the shore leaving me without any options but to stop. You can take two views on this; 1. I should have anticipated this and avoid the situation to begin with or 2. the kiter following close up lee wards should realize the situation and immediately maneuver to allow me to turn. Which would be the right way to look at this?
First thing first - the guy behind you should not be in your wake or pushing you onshore
Few things I would do then:
- raise my back hand and do a rotation gesture trying to communicate "I'm going to turn, get out of my way"
- if I'm an ass I make a jerk kite movement to zenith combined with sheeting out and let the guy following me to freak the hell out for a second and then I keep going on my original course. A bit like same to touching brake pedal to flash the red lights to the tailgater.
- I assess his kite and the rider position and either aggressively downloop and turn downwind of him or textbook scenario raise my kite and turn staying upwind of him. If you're faster and more efficient rider you simply have more options than the other one.
Thanks grigorib, this is what I needed to know and I now feel more confident in letting the person behind me know that I expect him or her to give way.


Matteo V wrote:
vela99 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:46 pm
One situation I come across occasionally on a crowded day is that as I approach shore I take a look backwards before initiating a jibe to learn that close behind me lee wards another kiter approaches the shore leaving me without any options but to stop. The kiter that forced you in is wrong.

Anther situation I come across occasionally in small onshore wave conditions with waves coming in very short sequence. Two kiters surf two consecutive waves with the risk of kites or lines actually crossing during bottom turns and top turns. Does the kiter surfing the 2nd wave, the one coming behind give way to the guy on the first wave in front? I guess so. This can be a special circumstance that applies to only kiteboarding, though it does not conflict with maritime law as no vessels other than kiteboarders utilize the surf break (ok..kayaks, SUP's are now vessels, JetSurfboards, standup jetskis [only one with more maneuverability than a kiter]. But for the most part, this is a kiter on kiter interaction. And because of this, the widely agreed upon kitesurfing specific rule is that a rider on an incoming wave, while riding that wave, has the right of way.
So lets define this rule (please note there is no rule book on this, so this rule is an interpretation of local customs, and the majority agreement from forums):
(1&2 change rule of "out going has right of way over incoming")
1. If a kitesurfer is on an incoming wave and a kitesurfer is just heading out form shore into the water, outgoing kiter must yield for the kiter ON THE WAVE (I do not particularly agree with this one but abide by it).
2. If a kitesurfer is "under way" and heading out after coming to the inside from a wave ride, but a rider is ON A WAVE coming in, the outgoing kiter must yield to the kiter ON THE WAVE.

(3, 4, & 5 illustrate when the rule of outgoing has the right of way over incoming is "not changed")
3. If a kiter ON THE WAVE disengages the wave, or the wave closes out becoming small enough to ride back out over, the kiter that was on the wave now yields right of way back to the outgoing kiter - and must turn around to head back out. That kiter previously on the wave can re-assume the right of way (head back in) if faced with an incoming wave that cannot be safely gone over. This helps avoid an outgoing rider pushing another outgoing rider into something that they will fall on, lose their board, and become much more of an obstacle in the break than if the rider on the inside just waits on the inside.
4. If the incoming rider is NOT ON A WAVE, but rather between sets/crests, that rider does not have the right of way over an outgoing rider. Only a kiter ON THE WAVE CAN change the rule.
5. An incoming rider ON THE WAVE does NOT HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY to force the kiter on the inside to retreat to shore or run aground in shallow water. Wave or not, you must not run another kiter out of the water or cause them to run aground/stop and stand (I do stop out of courtesy on most occasions, but this should not be the rule).

This response would also be up for debate on the proper course of action.

So the answer to your specific question about 2 kiters on consecutive waves is as follows (as i see it). Both have equal right to ride the wave, but must avoid collision. Personally, I only ride a wave in tandem with people I know. But with consecutive waves, I just do not have a good record of riding and not having to change my ride because of the guy on the next wave out or the next wave in.
Thanks Matteo V but I think you are not addressing the question I have or maybe I am not reading you correctly!? I am talking about two kiters actively riding on two different waves on the same tack doing bottoms and cut backs on small on shore waves which require a lot of kite movement. The small waves being close together I guess that common sense dictates that the person surfing on the second wave behind the first kiter has to make sure his kite does not get into the way of the first kiter. I would like to see some assurance this is correct or to hear otherwise.

Thanks

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby Matteo V » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:08 pm

vela99 wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:13 pm

Thanks Matteo V but I think you are not addressing the question I have or maybe I am not reading you correctly!? I am talking about two kiters actively riding on two different waves on the same tack doing bottoms and cut backs on small on shore waves which require a lot of kite movement. The small waves being close together I guess that common sense dictates that the person surfing on the second wave behind the first kiter has to make sure his kite does not get into the way of the first kiter. I would like to see some assurance this is correct or to hear otherwise.

Thanks
When there ain't room, there ain't room.

Sorry for over complicating the situation in my previous post. And "lack of room to ride the wave for both riders" is what I typically find in your situation. Since we are talking about a kitesurfing specific rule that has been added to the sailing/maritime rules (right of way is given to a rider ON A WAVE), and extension of this rule would need to be made for 2 riders close on consecutive short period waves. Please make a suggestion as to what that extension should be. "Keep clear" seems too obvious and easily left to interpretation.

1. Maybe upwind yields to downwind???? Would that make sense for your location? Is there a setup that this would not work on? Side shore winds shifting from side on to side off could change this during the wave ride.
2. First one on the wave claims the wave they are on and the wave behind/in front if less than 1.5 kite line lengths between crests???? Too much math for most kiters to handle.

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby knotwindy » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:14 pm

Maybe closest to shore/least maneuverable has right of way?

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby edt » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:26 pm

For these questionable cases, you know 2 riders on a wave, or someone crowding you and such you can't create rules for these. The reason is that for a rule to work everyone must know it! That's why the rules have to be simple. If you create a complicated rule for a complicated case there's zero chance that all of the kiters know it. You have no choice but to just stop where you are in the water if you are getting crowded or if there are two on a wave, or if there's no clear rule for the case, and let the other kiter go where he wants. In the questionable cases you just have to use the most important rule of all "Don't crash."

It's fun to debate this stuff but in reality you can only rely on the very simple rules:

1) more maneuverable crafts must always give way, 2) land is hard, give way to riders going out, 3) port rider has right of way but only if you are going exactly at each other, otherwise, upwind rider keeps kite high downwind rider keeps kite low 4) always give way to someone on wave they are watching the wave and not you.

You can't expect kiters to know much more than this. Blake's video is really good, covers everything, but I skipped the first 5 minutes that part was boring.

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby Lokihel » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:09 pm

edt wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:26 pm
It's fun to debate this stuff but in reality you can only rely on the very simple rules:

[...] 3) port rider has right of way [...]

You can't expect kiters to know much more than this.
Quite sure it is the rider on the starboard tack that has the right of way in that case (opposite tacks crossing).

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby grigorib » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:47 pm

edt wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:26 pm
2) land is hard, give way to riders going out.
This one seems pretty logical for vessels which can float indefinitely in water and are safer at water than by land.
But it doesn't make much sense for humans which are safer, faster and more maneuverable when standing. Imagine swimming pool saying swimmers entering the pool/lake have right of way because swimmers in water have "more freedom". Doesn't make very good sense, does it?

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edt
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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby edt » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:48 pm

Lokihel wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:09 pm
edt wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:26 pm
It's fun to debate this stuff but in reality you can only rely on the very simple rules:

[...] 3) port rider has right of way [...]

You can't expect kiters to know much more than this.
Quite sure it is the rider on the starboard tack that has the right of way in that case (opposite tacks crossing).
what did I say port? yes starboard has right of way

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edt
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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby edt » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:50 pm

grigorib wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:47 pm
edt wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:26 pm
2) land is hard, give way to riders going out.
This one seems pretty logical for vessels which can float indefinitely in water and are safer at water than by land.
But it doesn't make much sense for humans which are safer, faster and more maneuverable when standing. Imagine swimming pool saying swimmers entering the pool/lake have right of way because swimmers in water have "more freedom". Doesn't make very good sense, does it?
I'm not sure what your point is. at any time you can get lofted by a gust front. don't dick around at the launch drinking a beer with your kite in the air. get out on water ASAP or land it.

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby longwhitecloud » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:05 am

I am picturing a kiter ploughing through others shouting "starboard!" :-0 you could do it all day long mowing the lawn, on the trick spot. Epic!

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Re: Kiteboarding Rules-of-Navigation Video

Postby jeromeL » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:15 am

longwhitecloud wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:05 am
I am picturing a kiter ploughing through others shouting "starboard!" :-0 you could do it all day long mowing the lawn, on the trick spot. Epic!
😂


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