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Explain bar pressure please

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edt
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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby edt » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:33 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:09 pm
Higher bar pressure due to shorter leverage (backline attachment closer to frontlines) should not give slower turns. Same amount of sheeting (or turning input) makes then bigger reaction in kite, so turning should be faster :wink:

Well the kite definitely turns quicker if you move the attachment points all the way to the rear of the kite and the bar pressure also goes down. I admit your reasoning makes sense but that's not how it works. Maybe it's because we never kite with our hands all the way on the ends of the control bar but somewhere in the middle so the constant is not the distance the end of the control bar travels but the amount of pressure you exert? Actually we probably move our arms around on the control bar to make the pressure exactly the same no matter where you move the attachments. When you feel higher pressure you move your hands more to the end of the control bar, and with less pressure you move your hands closer to the middle so you get a better lever arm for a quicker kite.

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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby jeromeL » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:12 pm

I think I agree with what edt said, even though it makes sense that kite should turn faster on high bar pressure, it just doesn't from what I tested. It's that much harder to pull the bar in... Maybe I was tired from riding too many days in a row but I had to come back and make the change to low bar pressure, all the loop trick became easier...

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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby Mitaka » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:20 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:11 pm
Depends if you pull to the same distance or with the same pressure.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
edt wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:33 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:09 pm
Higher bar pressure due to shorter leverage (backline attachment closer to frontlines) should not give slower turns. Same amount of sheeting (or turning input) makes then bigger reaction in kite, so turning should be faster :wink:

Well the kite definitely turns quicker if you move the attachment points all the way to the rear of the kite and the bar pressure also goes down. I admit your reasoning makes sense but that's not how it works. Maybe it's because we never kite with our hands all the way on the ends of the control bar but somewhere in the middle so the constant is not the distance the end of the control bar travels but the amount of pressure you exert? Actually we probably move our arms around on the control bar to make the pressure exactly the same no matter where you move the attachments. When you feel higher pressure you move your hands more to the end of the control bar, and with less pressure you move your hands closer to the middle so you get a better lever arm for a quicker kite.
I agree with kitexpert and knotwindy.

In order to compare turning speed at different rear line attachment points you should apply the same steering command which means same bar end travel (distance and time), otherwise you are comparing apples with oranges. In order to apply the same command you will definitely need less force when in A setting (rear line attachment point closer to the wingtip) and the kite will turn SLOWER because same command, same bar end travel will mean less kite angle change. On B setting the kite angle change is bigger and the turning will be quicker.

I also agree with edt that it is possible to 'feel' that the kite is turning faster on setting A and the reason for that is that with less bar pressure on setting A you apply easily and faster more radical (more bar end travel) steering command. With more radical command of course the kite turns faster :D

To be even more precise if we have a big kite, turning it on setting B will need too much force and it is practically easier and faster to turn it using A setting.
On the other hand smaller kites need much less force to turn and it is easy enough to make fast and radical steering commands even on B setting. Small kites will turn faster on setting B.

For waveriding I use my smaller kites on B setting and the bigger ones on A setting :D

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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby edt » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:48 pm

All kites turn faster when you use the settings further from the leading edge. Think about this. When you are teaching a newbie kiter and they are yanking the kite all over the sky and you want them to slow down the kite what do you tell them? "Move the hands away from the center of the bar, you will slow it down that way!" Right? Because the amount of distance traveled by the bar is less per amount the kite moves in the sky right? No! We tell new kiters "Move your hands to the center of the bar to slow down the kite." Now the exact reason why this happens is not totally clear to me. I suppose it's because when we turn something we don't measure how much we turn it by measuring distance. We measure force applied and the distance doesn't matter? However it works, the further away you get from the leading edge on the rear attachment point the faster the kite turns, this works for big, small and medium sized kites. When I fly large kites I typically use longer lines, 30-40 meters, so it's useful to use the settings that are closer to the leading edge. But I sometimes use 20 meter lines on my 19 meter in that case I need to get the maximum amount of turning speed, and you want to put the attachments all the way furthest from the leading edge so the kite turns as fast as possible. Otherwise it will never complete a loop in time and just slam into the water.

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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby kitexpert » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:54 pm

#Mitaka :thumb:

I guess when unhooking having back lines closer to LE restricts unintentional kite movements. Also difference between hooked in/unhooked is smaller when bar pressure is high all the time.

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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby roninXpl » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:55 pm

Core kites have two setting points - one for turning speed, one for bar pressure. While I can say the turning speed setting do affect the turning speed, I haven’t tested the other setting - can someone write one’s experience with that? I mostly focus on big air and old school - should I play with pressure setting for anything else than feedback and less pressure on hands?

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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby jeromeL » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:47 pm

roninXpl wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:55 pm
Core kites have two setting points - one for turning speed, one for bar pressure. While I can say the turning speed setting do affect the turning speed, I haven’t tested the other setting - can someone write one’s experience with that? I mostly focus on big air and old school - should I play with pressure setting for anything else than feedback and less pressure on hands?
I think there was a nice explanation on the new cabrinha FX 2018 thread, since they also introduced the new setting.
I assume the turning speed setting is on the bridle?
in FX thread they explained that the setting change the leverage between the bridle point and the steering line changing the turning speed. Also will have effect of kite rotating on itself more than turning while flying into an arc.

in FX thread they said that basically the bar pressure knot is all about personal feeling and how much bar pressure you like and how much you like the feel of the kite...

Anyway so I wouldn't worry too much about it but you should try switching it one day, I tried recently on one of my kite and hated it. pressure is already very high. Though I tried briefly XR4 9m and found bar pressure pretty low so I would probably try the higher bar pressure personally to see what happens.

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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby edt » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:03 pm

roninXpl wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:55 pm
Core kites have two setting points - one for turning speed, one for bar pressure. While I can say the turning speed setting do affect the turning speed, I haven’t tested the other setting - can someone write one’s experience with that? I mostly focus on big air and old school - should I play with pressure setting for anything else than feedback and less pressure on hands?
Yeah I have a setting like that one on of my kites. So the setting on the bridle is what they talk about being more or less bar pressure. If you set it to either more bar pressure or less bar pressure the kite's center of pull changes and it becomes less efficient, it doesn't jump as high or go upwind as well. I think unless you have damage to your elbows reducing the bar pressure this way is not worth it as the kite is just worse. The other setting, the "turn faster" and "turn slower" setting on the steering lines is ok to change as that doesn't actually change the center of pull of the kite it just changes the lever arm for the rear lines. So change the rear lines but leave the setting on the bridle in the middle. Just my humble opinion. By the way both settings have a complex effect on both the kite speed and the bar pressure so it's a bit of a simplification for them to label just one bar pressure and the other turning speed.

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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby ichabod » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:06 pm

I have always been a bit confused about how the setting B results in a slower turn - as someone mentioned, simple logic suggest that less bar input is required so turn should be quicker. I heard a description on the North Dice 2018 product clip I think that mentioned it was because as the attachment point is moved forward towards the leading edge, the turning input tends to twist the frame of the kite and produce C-kite type turning characteristics. Whereas with the A setting the turn becomes more pivotal.

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Re: Explain bar pressure please

Postby dylan* » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:27 pm

ichabod wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:06 pm
I have always been a bit confused about how the setting B results in a slower turn - as someone mentioned, simple logic suggest that less bar input is required so turn should be quicker. I heard a description on the North Dice 2018 product clip I think that mentioned it was because as the attachment point is moved forward towards the leading edge, the turning input tends to twist the frame of the kite and produce C-kite type turning characteristics. Whereas with the A setting the turn becomes more pivotal.
I don't know which settings you refer to as A and B but the one farther from the tip requires more input to turn the kite, not less


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