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Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

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knotwindy
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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby knotwindy » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:30 pm

Smaller kites have smaller (thinner) tubes so they DO need to be pumped harder than the bigger (fatter) tubes to get the same rigidity. So instead of 7 psi, try maybe 9 but you should be able to tell by comparing the flex of the wingtip on the larger kites to the smaller ones.

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cglazier
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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby cglazier » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:01 pm

Certainly more pumping to a higher pressure will reduce your problem.

Actually smaller kites can have smaller tubes because they have smaller canopy areas to support. For any given kite, bigger tube size gives more stability and more struts do also, but of course these parameters are part of a kites design.

For example my Naish Pivots never collapse when I loop them, but my Niash Boxer (single strut) sometimes does. The Pivots are designed to handle being overpowered while the Boxer is optimized for light wind.

Ultimately some kite designs hold their shape (don't collapse) better than others.

:-; CG

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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:13 pm

What is your weight pākihiroa ? Average ?

A few kites got this "problem", not necessarily an entire series, but many both well reputed brands and less reputed, have sometimes had "a dog" in this respect.

Take f.ex the Wipika AMP 11.9 m2 from 2003, it had this unwanted effect notoriously, you could in fact see the tips almost or really touching each other for an instant before it "folded back", and the design was changed very soon because it was so evident :roll:

Some kites are a bit more prone to this, by design (failure IMO, but if you are heavier the design can not always accommodate for that)

You might have to change to another kite, if you, as you state, are sure it is rock hard pumped :wink:

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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby pākihiroa » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:38 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:13 pm
What is your weight pākihiroa ? Average ?
Real light weight. Around 57 kg.

One thing that was a bit different on that particular session with the 8 m was that I had the bar adjusted from the customary 48 cm to 56 cm wide (because I had been using my recently purchased Apollo 8 m, which is a great kite BTW :thumb:, and forgot to set it back to 'normal'). But I have a hard time believing that would make any difference…..

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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby slingshotucf » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:27 pm

if the front lines are stretched then the kite will tend to fold during loops, also happens if the front bridal has some stretch. See this often when people just throw the same trick over and over again.

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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby kitexpert » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:56 am

pākihiroa wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:38 pm

Real light weight. Around 57 kg.
You really are a light weight guy. If you have a standard 4" pump and you want to have your kite inflated to 10psi pressure you must press it down with 125lbs weight which happens to be exactly 57kg. I've noticed many times women are not able to pump enough pressure because they don't have enough strength and body weight.

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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby alexeyga » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:33 pm

pākihiroa wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:38 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:13 pm
What is your weight pākihiroa ? Average ?
Real light weight. Around 57 kg.
I think I know where Peter was going with this as I was curious about your weight as well. You might simply be too light - or rather - at our weight you're flying this kite in conditions too light for that particular size and it doesn't have enough "wind pressure" (kite designers - what's the right term here?) to hold its shape. If I was you - I'd be looking into really light kites with 3, 2 or even 1 strut. Bandits for instance, North Evo or some Ozones.

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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby kitexpert » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:44 pm

alexeyga wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:33 pm
pākihiroa wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:38 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:13 pm
What is your weight pākihiroa ? Average ?
Real light weight. Around 57 kg.
I think I know where Peter was going with this as I was curious about your weight as well. You might simply be too light - or rather - at our weight you're flying this kite in conditions too light for that particular size and it doesn't have enough "wind pressure" (kite designers - what's the right term here?) to hold its shape. If I was you - I'd be looking into really light kites with 3, 2 or even 1 strut. Bandits for instance, North Evo or some Ozones.
I don't think conditions can be too light for LEI to not to hold its shape. It is also true that light weight kiter it is not very likely able to over load kite so much it will buckle or invert etc.

Less rigid LE I have seen is probably in Best Nemesis kites, because it is so very thin. However it is supported if I remember correct 4 point bridle which is usually sufficient, and when inflated to 10-12psi I didn't have any problems.(I'm a mid-weight kiter). But I remember some collapses with heavier riders in high winds with it.

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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby baxterbradford » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:57 pm

Aiming for 10psi seems too much for 57kg rider. If it really is needed, then changing pump to electric ion (or other make) or possibly a SUP high pressure/low volume ought to negate problems with not having enough mass to achieve pressure. I would have thought that so long as it retains pressure, then 8psi would suffice to prevent this kite behaviour. Ozone don't like you going much over 8psi & Core are the same with my Core Free 17m only specifying 7psi max.

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Re: Kite collapsing on itself during down loop !

Postby kitexpert » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:56 pm

baxterbradford wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:57 pm
Aiming for 10psi seems too much for 57kg rider. If it really is needed, then changing pump to electric ion (or other make) or possibly a SUP high pressure/low volume ought to negate problems with not having enough mass to achieve pressure. I would have thought that so long as it retains pressure, then 8psi would suffice to prevent this kite behaviour. Ozone don't like you going much over 8psi & Core are the same with my Core Free 17m only specifying 7psi max.
I wouldn't say 10psi is too much for anyone, if it does not exceed kites capability to stand the pressure. I agree though a bit less pressure should be ok if kiter is a light weight one. This lighter pressure matches quite well to pressure light weight kiter can achieve with a normal pump.

Best Nemesis was a special one needing high pressure and it could also take it without exploding. Big kites like 17m Core have thick LE's which are weaker and due to thickness don't even need that high pressure to get rigid enough. Having 7psi in 17m Core stresses LE much more than 10psi in Nemesis.


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