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Beginner kites with the best safety systems?

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iriejohn
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Re: Beginner kites with the best safety systems?

Postby iriejohn » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:27 pm

Cab Driver wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:30 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:46 pm
Cab Driver wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:44 pm


Or one could also use a smaller harness loop or a system like Fireball that is already about 8cm closer to the body without any tradeoff.
The Fireball brings the bar "about 8cm closer to the body" than what?
versus a standard loop system and a standard spreader bar.
There is no "standard" loop system or "standard" spreader bar.

If you mean like in the Fireball promotion video let's be honest, the loop and hook in the video was at best poetic licence. :wink:

Hpr
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Re: Beginner kites with the best safety systems?

Postby Hpr » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:34 am

rynhardt wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:21 am
Hpr wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:51 am
I don’t think a trimless system (like BRM) is ideal in some conditions. If you kite somewhere where the wind might go from 20 to 30 knots during the session, you won’t be able to adjust the bar position (by trimming) and will need to ride with the bar further out and your arms straighter. I’ve never used a trimless bar so maybe I understand it wrong. But I have used bars with very little trim adjustment and didn’t like at all how I had to have the bar at different (uncomfortable) positions when the wind changed and I ran out of trim.
Depends very much on the kite. The BRM kites typically have a very short trim range (I believe this was one of the design goals). Which is one of the reasons it takes a while to adjust to the kite.
Because of the this, a trim system is largely redundant.
The additional throw is there to allow a huge amount of depower. Because you can pretty much depower the kite completely by simply letting go of the bar, you really only ever need to release to one line in exceptional circumstances.

The C2 17 is my favourite kite for teaching friends and relatives. You can practise in 10kn, it reacts slowly and if you get flustered you just let go of the bar.
Don't you adjust the trim (or angle of attack is probably more accurate) every time you move the bar by simply changing the length of the back versus front lines? So whether you have a strap, cleat or other system on the rear lines (or front lines on some of the newer bars) or moving the bar itself it's really the same thing. In this context, talking about having a 'short trim range' and 'trim system is largely redundant' (because of the 'short trim range') and then saying the kite has a huge depower throw doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, my point remains. Without a trim system you will need to have the bar at different positions in differing wind strengths (for the same pull or sweetspot).

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rynhardt
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Re: Beginner kites with the best safety systems?

Postby rynhardt » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:37 am

Hpr wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:34 am
Don't you adjust the trim (or angle of attack is probably more accurate) every time you move the bar by simply changing the length of the back versus front lines? So whether you have a strap, cleat or other system on the rear lines (or front lines on some of the newer bars) or moving the bar itself it's really the same thing. In this context, talking about having a 'short trim range' and 'trim system is largely redundant' (because of the 'short trim range') and then saying the kite has a huge depower throw doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, my point remains. Without a trim system you will need to have the bar at different positions in differing wind strengths (for the same pull or sweetspot).
Well yes. The strap/cleat/whatever simply offsets the same relative trim (AoA) position to being closer or further away, for ergonomic purposes.

So when I talk about a short trim range, my C2 17 needs about 20cm to go from fully powered to 90% depowered. I normally use about 5cm of that, i.e. 100% to 75% power at 10k, 75% to 50% at 12.5kn, 50% to 25% at 15kn, 75% to 90% depower at 17.5kn. Let go of the bar and it goes to 99% depower at 60cm of trim.
All of this is completely within my comfortable range of motion, hence I don't use a trim strap.

Whereas my pulley bridle 5 strut 11m, needs about 3 times the range on the control bar. So for this kite I would use a trim offset system (Z-rig).


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