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Is the rise of foiling affecting the sales of big light wind kites?

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Is the rise of foiling affecting the sales of big light wind kites?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:07 pm

Single or no strut kites are not less efficient Cab Driver, at their sweetspot, and they both turn and relaunch better than multistrut stiffer and heavier kites.

And why do you want "efficiency" when you dont race ???

But yes, the upper end is very "damaged" of course, no doubt, agree.

It does not matter on a hydrofoil for many riders - where you typically use a say 12 m2 one or no strut kite, in 6 to max 10 knots of wind.

Where EVERY other kite (except foilkites) wouldnt stand a chance.

So the point is (and the reason why a huge part of hydrofoilers love these), that these kites can hang in 4-5 knots of wind, and ride in say 6-9 knots on a hydrofoil perfectly at their sweetspot, and NO issues regarding having to pack a foilkite down and do a long and tiresome swim if it goes in the drink, and then using the rest of the day, or back home, getting the foilkite dry and free of sand, so you can ride again.

I know Cabrinha got none of these kites, just saying.... :naughty:

8) Peter

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Re: Is the rise of foiling affecting the sales of big light wind kites?

Postby Nem0 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:21 pm

Don't forget landkiteboarding (snow/gras). :!:
A foil is not useable at any spot!?! :nono:
That's why the new flysurfer soul comes from 6 to 21m. :thumb:

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Re: Is the rise of foiling affecting the sales of big light wind kites?

Postby kitejumping » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:48 pm

The super fast gigantic race foils that have become popular for foil racing are also awesome for snowkiting. I would think the sales of those is going to continue to go up, especially with the ultra light versions that float in the air when a lightwind specific LEI drops out of the sky due to the extra Dacron weight of the leading edge and struts. Maybe one day on one of the higher end offerings they will replace Dacron with Dyneema Composite Fabric / Cuben fiber, or one of the newer sail racing laminates that uses carbon fiber weaves in it.

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Re: Is the rise of foiling affecting the sales of big light wind kites?

Postby juandesooka » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:14 pm

Cab Driver wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:12 pm
What I don't understand is the use of single or no-strut on a hydrofoil in light wind. These kites just don't have a good wind range and they suffer as the draft is very unstable once up and foiling with apparent wind - they are overpowered quickly. They offer lighter weight, but lack efficiency.
Hoo boy, that'll bring on some commentary from the CloudLovers :-)

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Re: Is the rise of foiling affecting the sales of big light wind kites?

Postby jakemoore » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:43 pm

Cab Driver wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:12 pm
One also has to consider than many riding locations are just not conducive to ram airs (crowded beaches, onshore self launches, drifter launches, etc.), and ram airs tend to require more maintenance because of the complex and fragile bridles. There is a trade off to everything.
Ram airs drift launch fine. On shore wind self launch and land is easy with a ram air, as is assisted landing in onshore winds. Trees closer than 1 line length to the beach would pose a problem for foil kite self launch. Poor judgement to launch a balloon kite < 1 line length upwind of trees as well IMO. Crowded beaches pose the same risk for foil and tube kite.

Bridles are pain especially with beach debris. Balloon kites have them too. The hassle of bridle trim is balanced by the hassle of tube/valve repair. The the travel repair kite for a foil kite is a strip of ripstop tape and a piece of kite line to temporarily patch the skin or bridle.

I'm more likely to choose a balloon kite over a ram-air if there is drizzle, fog or wet sticky sand compared to any of the factors you mentioned.
Cab Driver wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:12 pm
What I don't understand is the use of single or no-strut on a hydrofoil in light wind.
Airush Ultra is a very nice kite that I liked well enough to keep one for myself. There is some pulsing and fluttering when it turns. The light weight is great for hydrofoil and wave drifting in onshore winds. And it is a forward flying efficient kite for a balloon.

BRM Cloud D is quite nice as well. Its a different feeling and is less efficient but its ability to fly in light winds is unmatched by other balloon kites. The clouds do not want for depower. I like the foil-kites myself but am impressed with how the Clouds work for people in very light winds.

What I'm not seeing a lot of are flying Cabrina kites in light winds.

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Re: Is the rise of foiling affecting the sales of big light wind kites?

Postby grigorib » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:02 am

juandesooka wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:14 pm
Cab Driver wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:12 pm
What I don't understand is the use of single or no-strut on a hydrofoil in light wind. These kites just don't have a good wind range and they suffer as the draft is very unstable once up and foiling with apparent wind - they are overpowered quickly. They offer lighter weight, but lack efficiency.
Hoo boy, that'll bring on some commentary from the CloudLovers :-)
jakemoore wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:43 pm
..
BRM Cloud D is quite nice as well. Its a different feeling and is less efficient but its ability to fly in light winds is unmatched by other balloon kites. The clouds do not want for depower. I like the foil-kites myself but am impressed with how the Clouds work for people in very light winds.
...
When you see a guy dive a Cloud and pull on a bar but instead of pull it delivers him a show of wingtips coming close together a-la underinflated kite it doesn't build ones confidence. Or when you loop it and it flutters like a piece of crap and doesn't deliver loop power you say "meh" yet again. And last you see a guy on 5-strut Airush of same size to get going in the same conditions, next to the poor underperforming Cloud and all you can say is "I have an ultralight delta kite and I bet it flies in almost no wind but it's useless for riding too".
I can use my Revs for Rev-style flying.

Good idea. Greg is a great foil freerider. But with their pricing and attitude ("are you an experienced rider?", "send me a signed disclaimer", "the kite is $700 but here's your bill for $1200") they'll be beaten by big kite companies who can produce cheaper, more structured wings and in better quantities.

Naish is there already, Cabrinha and Slingshot will hopefully deliver soon

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Re: Is the rise of foiling affecting the sales of big light wind kites?

Postby borist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:31 am

Cab Driver wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:12 pm
What I don't understand is the use of single or no-strut on a hydrofoil in light wind. These kites just don't have a good wind range ....
Hmmm, if I want to ride in light wind why do I care much about "good wind range"?
Recently did a side-by-side ride with Naish Trip 12m and ASV XR 11 in light wind. I like ASV a lot, a light kite for 5 strut-er, high AR, good speed, works well with HF generating apparent wind power. I'm new to Trip and when I tried 12m a year ago I did not like it then. This time I was surprised that it performed better than ASV. Sure, Trip is a little bigger, but I still expected a different outcome. I guess I'm slowly getting converted :lol:

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Re: Is the rise of foiling affecting the sales of big light wind kites?

Postby BWD » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:52 am

well, lots of silly words here but some good thoughts and perspectives, too.
First, I'm gonna defend the clouds a little:
When you see a guy dive a Cloud and pull on a bar but instead of pull it delivers him a show of wingtips coming close together a-la underinflated kite it doesn't build ones confidence.
there is a point here, but you are describing a guy without good kite skills. and probably underinflated, too.
loop it and it flutters like a piece of crap and doesn't deliver loop power you say "meh" yet again.
if it flutters that much rider is doing it wrong. same rider as above?
As foil/wave kite, it is designed to give gentle loops. does the rider know what he is doing? choosing the gear for it? horses for courses.
And last you see a guy on 5-strut Airush of same size to get going in the same conditions, next to the poor underperforming Cloud and all you can say is
there goes a good kiter on a heavy old kite and a clueless punter with a cloud...

All this is timely and funny for me to read as I just got back from a trip with my 7 9 12 clouds, surfboards and hydrofoil, with some friends who flew various kites including cab apollo 16m, rpm 14, and flysurfer speed 18, ozone chrono (17 or 18?) and LF solo 17.5 as lightwind options, and rode surfboards and twintips. Everybody had issues at times, since nothing is perfect.

The flysurfer sometimes needed a ground crew to help get it untangled, inflated and launched. It lured a couple of people out into dying seabreeze resulting in upwind walks.

The chrono also didnt come out of the bag until the wind was below 8 knots, and not a lot happened with it.

My 12m cloud had pigtails that didn't trim right with my new lineset, and a leaky valve (maybe my tuning issues more than the kite's, I guess.). And of course the cloud was worse upwind than the flysurfer.

The apollo made great power and upwind in light air but wasn't too fun in a tight lagoon since it turned so slow the rider had to use half each tack preparing for the next turn, it seemed. Also the apollo, though slow, if not sent across zenith fast enough, would lift the rider right off his strapless board, even in what must have been 8 knots. The comment about cabrinhas not being light enough is funny, especially since the clouds are sewn in the same loft and cabrinha is a subsidiary of the loft's owner. You would think if they wanted/needed to make them lighter, they could figure it out.

Maybe cabs aren't light enough, but 2 of the other riders who I shared fun 10-12 knots sessions with were on 12m cabs.
No one was powered the whole time, but the switchblades and my 12m cloud (lines tuned etc) both did fine.
My last session was with 12m cloud and 30m lines on the foilboard in 8 knots, no one else was even trying. It worked fine.

I also had a few runs in light wind with a sweet potato, controller fins and 12m cloud -more practical than the foil at the main spot which had only narrow lanes of deep water.
A punter/bar tugger would have been hopeless with the clouds, the ram airs, or the foil, and God hep him if he dropped the apollo in the water in <10. Again, nothing is perfect.
And light wind is not the easiest sailing.

The good old rpm 14 of course was great in lighter wind, to a point, then gravity took over at about 11 knots, just wants to sink. built like a tank.
The solo 17.5 worked well for its rider, but not for me (20kg lighter). One day i tried it overpowered and one day underpowered. Both time the turning was sluggish, at/over top end it just drug me, at bottom end it offered not advantage over 12m cloud + surfboard, though it would have beat any 12m and a normal twintip. in general its slowness to answer to bar input was annoying. But for the 110kg-ish rider it worked great from 12-18 knots with surfboard and twintip.

Probably I should have jumped on my foilboard with the FS one ultralight day at the beach but there was a shorebreak and I didn't want to risk tearing it up....

just a little recent perspective for y'all to chew on as you consider light wind options...
and sorry this post is not completely about hydrofoils, but it's relevant in that you will often end up riding in paces that are not foil friendly when the wind is light or up and down, or your confidence in the wind is low.


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