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Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

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AdroVempo
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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby AdroVempo » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:57 pm

FLandOBX wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:53 pm
Guttorm wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:22 pm
The 149cm SS Glides of the first years have 46cm width and wery little rocker compared to almost all other Lightwind boards, change wery small fins for bigger ones on the heelside and ride it without fins on the toeside to make it faster, you will love it.
(The newer Glide is long and narrow with more rocker, I am wery sure the old one is better)
+1 :thumb: Early 149 x 46 SS Glides (light blue, rounded corners, 1/2 inch fins) are great boards, if you can find one. I'm not a fan of the newer glides though.
Hi Guttorm and FLandOBX, Which year would that be? when you say "older glides".

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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby Matteo V » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:36 pm

AdroVempo wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:25 pm
This below video explaining the 'surface area' advantage of door board:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzpViLdWqYk
Unfortunately the video is missing an explanation of the VARIABILITY of wetted surface (in contact with the water, providing planing forces). This variability occurs due to wind speed/kitepower drops that you could not even waterstart while stuck in them, but you can use momentum/apparent wind to pass through them with an efficient planing surface and the sailing skill require to maintain speed. This is key and is why the narrow Glide has fans in consistent wind areas where you can "rig big" and be powered all the time without worrying about massive lulls. In areas where you have lulls dropping below 5 knots, but 12knots just 40 more meters further on your course, kiters favor wider and somewhat shorter boards.
Attachments
Planing surface.jpg

AdroVempo
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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby AdroVempo » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:18 am

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:36 pm
AdroVempo wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:25 pm
This below video explaining the 'surface area' advantage of door board:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzpViLdWqYk
Unfortunately the video is missing an explanation of the VARIABILITY of wetted surface (in contact with the water, providing planing forces). This variability occurs due to wind speed/kitepower drops that you could not even waterstart while stuck in them, but you can use momentum/apparent wind to pass through them with an efficient planing surface and the sailing skill require to maintain speed. This is key and is why the narrow Glide has fans in consistent wind areas where you can "rig big" and be powered all the time without worrying about massive lulls. In areas where you have lulls dropping below 5 knots, but 12knots just 40 more meters further on your course, kiters favor wider and somewhat shorter boards.
Hey Matteo, thanks for the input.

So you are suggesting either way I should go for door-style rectangular-shaped boards. Right?

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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby Matteo V » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:44 pm

If you will be kiting light/fluky winds in Minnesota, a wider tail board is more advantageous. Narrow LW boards are a niche market more for clean wind venues.

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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby FLandOBX » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:46 pm

AdroVempo wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:57 pm
Hi Guttorm and FLandOBX, Which year would that be? when you say "older glides".
The first SS Glides came out in 2006. 2006-2007 are the ones I'm describing. Here's a link to one that appears to be for sale. (I have no affiliation with the seller or personal knowledge of this particular board.)
[http://www.windance.com/149cm-Slingshot-Glide/43029/]
Around 2008, the Glide became stiff and heavy, IMHO. By 2011, the corners of the board became angular and had a tendency to catch in chop. The early Glides are very flat and feel almost like a skim-board. It may take you a bit to get used to the feel, but they are great light wind boards, especially in flat water.

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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby AdroVempo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:45 pm

galewarning wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:15 pm
Agreed. Wide boards require a lot of pressure to hold an edge. Learning to ride a TT is all about edging. Through an unusual set of circumstances, I acquired a Slingshot Glide. Not my intention to buy a 'door' type TT board, but I've come to appreciate the Glide's design of being long, straight and relatively narrow. You get more planing surface area thru length, not width. The longer of the two models is a 159, which I own, is only 40.X cm wide, about the same width of the 135 I normally ride. The shorter 149 cm Glide is actually a half cm wider than the 159. The long and straight edge of the Glide allows it point pretty high and doesn't require a huge amount of energy to hold an edge. The Glide is my fast-planing, lightwind session saver...
gilana wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:04 pm
Im going to fly in the face of convention again.

Big boards suck to learn on. They get you planing allright! but kiting is almost never planing, its on the edge.
A 50cm lever is a hell of a thing for the new kiter to edge.

A big board will result in more faceplants during learning, absolutely. I would rather a student fall backwards ass first 10 times than one faceplant.
Forget the obsession with "getting up" that will come automatically.

You will land up going downwind uncontrollably fast on a big board, unable to edge-up and fly the kite low...
Hi galeWarning and Gilana, thanks for your input.

From what I understand, the conflict here in this thread is that :
1. Pro-Big-Board guys: You need bigger wider board for the surface area to get going. But....
2. Anti-Big board guys: On the Contrary, the wider boards are tougher to edge.

But I noticed that on a lot of these wide boards, at least on the Liduid Force Libre board that I am considering, they seem to have made is specially with a "bias" for heel-side so that edging becomes easier. This is the explanation from their designers:

"To achieve this, we gave the Libre a distinctly targeted asymmetrical shape. Basically, with this board, the meat is under your feet. Since it's designed to have a dedicated heel-side edge, the meat is concentrated on the heel-side of the board, tapering off on the toe-side edge. The same principle governs the asymmetrical placement of the bottom concave which runs from tip to tip off-center along the heel-side edge of the board. At the same time, the fins on the heel-side edge are placed close to the edge while the toe-side fins are positioned more toward the center of the board. Now, on the deck, the foot strap inserts are asymmetrically placed as well, completing the board's asymmetrical functionality."

Does this make it valid for wide board to be not-so-bad for edging, after all?

Btw, LF also has a pure-beginner heel-side-edge-biased board called LF Edge for even cheaper price, but I had used it in one of the classes and the thing is soo damn heavy. Even to carry it with one hand. But even in terms of ability, this Edge Board is so limited that you cannot use it past the very initial phase of learning. While If I go with the Libre, hopefully, at least it might stay as my LW board later on. Thoughts/suggestions/corrections on this is appreciated too.

Thanks

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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby Matteo V » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:14 pm

AdroVempo wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:45 pm
From what I understand, the conflict here in this thread is that :
1. Pro-Big-Board guys: You need bigger wider board for the surface area to get going. But....
2. Anti-Big board guys: On the Contrary, the wider boards are tougher to edge.
Both statements are true. That is the very definition of "trade offs"

Then you have the same thing with cheap boards being heavy (and durable most of the time) and an expensive full carbon door being light weight and fragile. Again, "trade offs".


No matter which route you go with a light wind board, you make some sacrifice. Light winds are great fun, but definitely not as fun as higher winds on water. Still, LW skill is key to overall skill level so you should put some time into it.


And not to sound rude, but you are really overthinking this one. Simply buy a LW board and learn it. The only "bad" LW board I know of out there is the newer narrower "Glide" - at least for Minnesota winds. Some places, the "Glide" is well suited and would be a good choice.

AdroVempo
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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby AdroVempo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:23 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:14 pm
AdroVempo wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:45 pm
From what I understand, the conflict here in this thread is that :
1. Pro-Big-Board guys: You need bigger wider board for the surface area to get going. But....
2. Anti-Big board guys: On the Contrary, the wider boards are tougher to edge.
Both statements are true. That is the very definition of "trade offs"

Then you have the same thing with cheap boards being heavy (and durable most of the time) and an expensive full carbon door being light weight and fragile. Again, "trade offs".


No matter which route you go with a light wind board, you make some sacrifice. Light winds are great fun, but definitely not as fun as higher winds on water. Still, LW skill is key to overall skill level so you should put some time into it.


And not to sound rude, but you are really overthinking this one. Simply buy a LW board and learn it. The only "bad" LW board I know of out there is the newer narrower "Glide" - at least for Minnesota winds. Some places, the "Glide" is well suited and would be a good choice.
Thanks Matteo. And no offence taken. :) I too just realized that I am overthinking this one. But the reason I am being so cautious is: I had struggled a lot (probably lot more than anyone that I know) with water-starts. Almost an entire Kite trip (4 continuous days of trying waterstarts) went past and I still could not perfect the waterstart. And all the instructors there were like "Your Board skills are bad, Your Boards skills are bad". Maybe that is the cause of my over-thinking.
Also, I am fairly more confident now though, coz I had been able to some good snowkiting this year, both in super gusty winds (30 mph) and super light winds.

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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby knotwindy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:47 pm

If the main communication from your instructors was ‘your board skills are bad’;
It was your instructors that were bad. That is not really helpful information. So maybe it wasn’t/isn’t your skills that are lacking. Just go spend more time on whatever bigger gear you have around and it will come together. Then worry about the ‘perfect set-up’. Which you will probably never find and if you do your style will change and it won’t be perfect any longer.
The short answer to your question is TOW.

AdroVempo
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Re: Beginner Board Advice: Door vs Regular Large

Postby AdroVempo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:46 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:47 pm
If the main communication from your instructors was ‘your board skills are bad’;
It was your instructors that were bad. That is not really helpful information. So maybe it wasn’t/isn’t your skills that are lacking. Just go spend more time on whatever bigger gear you have around and it will come together. Then worry about the ‘perfect set-up’. Which you will probably never find and if you do your style will change and it won’t be perfect any longer.
The short answer to your question is TOW.
Oh yes, the instructors were so bad. Don't even get me started on those guys. And they were in Cape Hatteras. Though they were not one of those bigger schools/companies. I really regret having gone with them.


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