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Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

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evan
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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby evan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:27 am

How did you test it Gunnar? Because I have yet to find a line that exceeds it's listed strength by 150%

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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby foilholio » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:30 am

Oh a lot of fishing lines exceed listed by 200%, I think it is so when people (or media) test knots it looks impressive.

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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby foilholio » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:50 am

OzBungy wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:58 am
I am wondering why we're talking about Brummel splices at all. They sound cool because they are self locking. The big problem is that they're very difficult to get accurate lengths. All the splice parts use up a couple of centimeters of line and you end up with a short line. Once you have done the splice you're stuck with it
Yep Brummels are hard to get accurate, but not impossible. You need to rely on pen marks on the line.
OzBungy wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:58 am
A simple bury splice is much easier to do and extremely easy to adjust the length. You just put it next to it's partner line and slide the splice up and down until it's accurate. Don't forget to apply the same tension on the lines when measuring. Tension makes a huge difference in line length.
Plain splices are easy to adjust when not stitched, you can adjust a brummel put it's difficult. Tension is very important when doing stuff with line lengths, super important for flying lines cause they are so long. I use a pulley to balance them.
OzBungy wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:58 am
Length of flying lines is not so critical because you can adjust them with the pigtails. It's still a pain to do that. Length of bridle lines is super critical (especially in foil kites). It's far better to use a method where you can proof and adjust the length before completing the splice.
Important to remove shrink from lines before adjusting them. Usually that alone will correct them.
OzBungy wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:58 am
If you're super pedantic like me, use a safety pin to lock the splice then sew it on the sewing machine.
Pins are best for being super accurate, but pen marks are good, I would still use some pen marks as backup on things like flying lines.
OzBungy wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:58 am
I would have been more interested in seeing Gunnar do a splice on <1mm line. It's really hard to get the end of the guitar string into thin line. I think my record is 1.1mm. I tried 0.8mm and it was too hard.
Try some other line, Jerry Browns stuff is very easy, the weave opens very big. I use picture frame wire which is steel, just use a thinner wire if you need. Some line is really not spliceable though.
OzBungy wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:58 am
Just a few other comments on Brummel splices. The method shown puts twists into the line where it passes through itself. That worries me. You can do a brummel splice by passing the long end through and that avoids the twist.
Yep twists are bad.

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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:07 pm

Pen marks aren't so helpful, as the gap in the weave you need to make holes in can be on either side of the pen mark.

The easiest way to do it is to secure and line up four lines, under tension. Then mark the points where the weave crosses at as close to the right measurements as you can. If you're really OCD, count the "holes".

You can get it within a 5mm easy, but perfect takes a bit of fiddling. Gotta be real careful with the taper too.

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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby edt » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:29 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:08 am


I am not sure what you have tested, but my own tests on sk99 dyneema say something different....... With the taper the way I do it, it broke between 410kg and 430kg, which is about 150%.

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our tests are certainly different. make sure you do comparison tests too for slower taper vs unravel.

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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby gmb13 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:38 pm

evan wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:27 am
How did you test it Gunnar? Because I have yet to find a line that exceeds it's listed strength by 150%

Stretched the line using a pulley system and ratchet straps. Probably the same as most others use. Actually it should always be around 150% or more if the line is new. The manufacturers always at that much margin for breaking strength.

The statements from edt and foilholio that my way of tapering the line and that the Brummel reduced breaking strength to 50% are just not correct. You can look it up yourselves and and you will find the most conservative tests with old rope give a reduction of around 10% with taper and 15% with a blunt splice end.

In the end. The video is about how I do it, and have done it since 2008. I have never had a line break that I have made myself. The line that I broke last week had no splice.


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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby edt » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:48 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:38 pm

In the end. The video is about how I do it, and have done it since 2008. I have never had a line break that I have made myself. The line that I broke last week had no splice.


--
Gunnar
I realize you are not going to change your mind. You've been doing it this way for 10 years. Just keep it in mind the next time you do testing. Make sure you test a plain rope (no splice), figure 8 knot, unweave the rope and blunt end, and then compare them. I have also read a lot of literature and it doesn't all agree.

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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby gmb13 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:01 pm

edt wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:48 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:38 pm

In the end. The video is about how I do it, and have done it since 2008. I have never had a line break that I have made myself. The line that I broke last week had no splice.


--
Gunnar
I realize you are not going to change your mind. You've been doing it this way for 10 years. Just keep it in mind the next time you do testing. Make sure you test a plain rope (no splice), figure 8 knot, unweave the rope and blunt end, and then compare them. I have also read a lot of literature and it doesn't all agree.
With exception of the figure 8 knot (which is obvious) I have tested everything else. What you are saying is that almost everyone is riding lines at the moment which are only at 50% breaking strength, as no manufacturer does a super clean taper and most don't bother tapering at all. I have yet to see one paper on how not having taper reduced the strength by that much.

This is the last reply on this post about tappers and breaking strength etc. as this has now been discussed enough and most people are smart enough to do their own research into this topic. I will now move onto the next video project and not waste my time on this anymore.



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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby edt » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:08 pm

Looking forward to your next video. Sorry this conversion got so heated. You know what they say, never talk about politics god or splices.

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Re: Kite Tech Tips: Brummel Splice

Postby edt » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:29 pm

Also if you ever decide to make a splice line strength video include the figure 8 as a control. For instance if the figure 8 tests at 150% you know you have to recalibrate your instruments.


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