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Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

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Matteo V
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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby Matteo V » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:09 am

longwhitecloud wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:43 am
since 1998 kiters have been refered to as pilots ... because they fly.. with a wing.. in fact the majority of all deaths associated with kite sports are as a a result of impacts from flying.. hardly sailing! and yes we had been running events, pioneering the sport long long before they/ he came along.
longwhitecloud wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:35 pm
Wings generate lift. Sails are for sideways traction.

Hydrofoils are wings tho.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that will come up if the court case goes ahead, skilled lawyers will be paid thousands to argue that not only is kiting sailing but downwind sup is in fact sailing too lol.

kiters dont use masts they use long lines, they are not helmsmen they are pilots, we dont use sails we use kites, we dont use a main sheet we use a bar, our kites are kites because they generare lift as do wings... they are kites because they are on long lines.

Pretty hard to argue against kiteboarding actually being sailing. How do you position yourself out on the water as a kiter? You do so in the same way you do in sailing a boat or any other craft - By making a tack line that is typically 90 degrees to the wind (more or less). Wind speed vs the media speed on which you are riding (stationary water, flowing river, land, snow) exploits the differential forces at the interacting layer of those two medias. Or rather the differential between the speed of those two medias is how you create movement and position yourself according to the possible directions of travel. Same as sailing.

Can you sail when there is zero differential between the wind speed and water speed? No. Can you fly or glide a plane without a differential between the air, water, or ground speed. Yes, you use engines, or climb up a hill to store potential energy.

So sailing could be defined by the exploitation of the difference in velocity of one media vs another at the surface where those medias touch. And without any differential, no sailing can take place - just like kiting.

Flying is solely reliant on engine, gravitational speed, or thermals to move and position the aircraft.

So, at best kiters can be considered sailors first. We take a tack slightly off wind to build up sailing speed by edging against the water and sailing at the optimum angle to the wind for maximum speed. Then we cut hard against the water to create a sudden increase in apparent wind speed, which maximizes the lift from the kite to allow us to jump high up in the air. For a number of seconds, we become airborne, then succumb to gravity as we loose any exploitable potential for the power harnessed from the "media speed deferential" since we are no longer in contact with the interaction of those media. So we only get to fly for a small portion of the total time sailing on the water.


badgb21 wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:24 am
Is there any direct effect on folks that don't compete?
Like what LWC said - there is potential for idiots who do not even kite to take over, stick one hand out for money, and put their hands in their handcuff pouch to pull em out if we don't comply.

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downunder
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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby downunder » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:36 am

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:09 am

Flying is solely reliant on engine, gravitational speed, or thermals to move and position the aircraft.

OMG, as a Paraglider pilot for years, flying paragliders is NOT "solely reliant on engine, gravitational speed, or thermals to move and position the aircraft."

Sorry, you are wrong. Paragliding is reliant mostly on WIND. We do not go out when is zero wind. We need SOME wind. Looks like you've never seen a paraglider on the 'sloped' beach to clam such a bold statement? ;) Anyways....

How do we define a para skiing? Is it a pilot or a skier? Is Ragnarok sailing or skiing/paragliding/boarding/? Is a foil kite a paraglider when launched from a hill? Would you need a piloting/sailing license?

A triathlon Champ is exactly that. A multidisciplinary champion. If we approach to kiting in a similar way, it's is a multidisciplinary sport in own rights.

A can or worms btw.

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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby longwhitecloud » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:14 am

good point..

dont forget..

kite buggying, kite skiing, kiteboarding, stunt kite competition, kite mountain boarding/ landboarding.

all have their own pioneers and own long history that is related to kite history, not sailing...

there are definitions in oxford dictionary.. attached to a mast and boom.. controlled with mainsheets .. certainly doesnt make kiting sailing. you can go directly downwind sailing ..no differential required as was your definition..

in fact sailors themselves call a spiniker a kite defined by the fact that it us not attached along the mast... just to one point and on lines and generates some uplift by the nature of its shape allowing for uplift .. they themselves made this definition.

football ( soccer for some)

you kick a ball with your foot.. by definition.. but in rugby, aussie rules, gaelic football, league, soccer, that happens but doesnt make them football.

hang gliding.. you glide and hang but that doesnt make paragliding the sport of hang gliding even though you do these things.

so what world sailing are going to preside over ragnarok?!


a lot if $$ to be mafe by lawyers


u might be interested to know that so far with olympic money potential there are cases of canoeing taking sup to court saying it is canoeing. a rollersports group trying take the US skateboarding association to court saying skateboarding is a rollersport and they are in charge ( previously only involved with roller skating)... just as with world sailing... they had nothing to do with the sports before olympic $ was mentioned.

They are simply trying to steal kiteboarding.





then there are speed wings, they are now into dragging their feet along the ground on their way.

i define myself as a kiter, always have since 1999... early kite magazines ( history) refer to traction kite participants as pilots not helmsman.

is skateboarding the same sport to u as rollerskating?

defined by some definitions it is ( roller.. rolling wheels) skating... the act of gliding on a surface)

we all know they are different sports...

anyway thanks for inputting your perspectives... will be how a court case goes down... long overdue

look this is all very interesting.. it really shows that word definitions of sports (eg sailing) do not define sports...

the National Basketball league does not control Netball ( very similar sports.. uses a ball and basket)

the term sailing away even refers to an engined powered vessel on water!

i got no respect for anyone that gives away kiting intellectual property to IKA or world sailing.. Sellouts.

gonna be an interesting court case!

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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby longwhitecloud » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:18 am

i would be very worried right now liability wise if i was IKA / world sailing!

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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby sq225917 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:11 pm

As long as they don't think they can interfere in law-making at a national level as regards access then they can do what they want for all I care.

We had a British Kitesurfing association 20 years before these clowns appeared.

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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby Matteo V » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:09 pm

downunder wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:36 am
Matteo V wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:09 am

Flying is solely reliant on engine, gravitational speed, or thermals to move and position the aircraft.

OMG, as a Paraglider pilot for years, flying paragliders is NOT "solely reliant on engine, gravitational speed, or thermals to move and position the aircraft."

Sorry, you are wrong. Paragliding is reliant mostly on WIND. We do not go out when is zero wind. We need SOME wind. Looks like you've never seen a paraglider on the 'sloped' beach to clam such a bold statement? ;) Anyways....

How do we define a para skiing? Is it a pilot or a skier? Is Ragnarok sailing or skiing/paragliding/boarding/? Is a foil kite a paraglider when launched from a hill? Would you need a piloting/sailing license?

A triathlon Champ is exactly that. A multidisciplinary champion. If we approach to kiting in a similar way, it's is a multidisciplinary sport in own rights.

A can or worms btw.
I am having trouble putting my previous explanation in a simple way, but for you, I will give it another go. And to head this one off at the pass, gravity is a constant, not a media, in both explanations.

Sailing has 2 medias which are interacted with when positioning the sailing craft. They are water AND air. There is a difference between the water's speed, and the speed of the air in sailing. This difference between the two is "leveraged" against in order to create movement in a preferred (or multiple choices of) direction. If there is no difference in speeds of these medias, no movement in a preferred direction can take place. Hold on to that thought for later.

Another key concept, which I did not mention before, is that a kiteboarder loses the capability to move in a preferred direction after the water's surface is disengaged in a jump. Or rather, once you jump and are only interacting with one media (air) you have no capability to change your course upwind, across the wind or downwind for a significant distance or to get to a distant location. Think of it this way, can you jump up into the air kiteboarding from the beach and make it out to that island that is across the river and slightly upwind? A kiter cannot, but a plane, or paraglider from the proper launch point, can. Planes and paragliders can fly there through the air alone, but kiteboarders have to sail there utilizing the push from the water and the pull from the wind, just like a sailboat.


Flight has only 1 media that is interacted with - the air alone, at least after takeoff. And after take off, all flying energy is provided by an engine, gravitational potential, or thermals (updrafts from a sand dune or mountain is not necessarily a thermal, but essentially performs the same function as a thermal). Again, in flight, there is no interaction with the ground (as an engaged separate media) after takeoff. And most importantly, after takeoff, the difference in airspeed vs ground speed is no longer important (or rather, essential) for powered or non-powered flight. After takeoff, wind speed at the interacting plane (geometric term) of the air/ground surface is no longer needed to reposition the plane or glider somewhere else. Put simply, without any part of the airplane or paraglider interacting between the ground and the air speed differential, both can still get to another desired location upwind, across the wind, or downwind.

Your specific reference to needing wind for non-powered paragliders has to do with the minimum takeoff airspeed over the wing. You can only run so fast, so taking off into the wind allows you to move at a slower pace with your legs, but the wing sees a higher speed airflow providing lift that you may not be able to generate without moving into the wind AND having some wind to help with your speed. There are many other launching advantages to having wind, but the biggest of additional note is that the wing can "self support" without the rider moving (wind holds up the wing), as in setting up the wings and visually checking the bridals before takeoff. If there was no wind, you would have to make apparent wind by running into the wind, likely backwards, to check your bridal system.

As for your reference to needing a sloped beach with wind (sand dune or mountain side), that is referencing an updraft created by a geographic feature. In this case, The air movement upwards is what allows the glider to be essentially be continually "falling through the air" without changing their altitude BECAUSE the air is moving upward over an obstruction AND upward relative to a constant altitude. If you have a problem with this concept, I can elaborate. It is pretty simple and you should be able to think it through but I will help if you would like. Again at the end of this explanation, I would simply state that the paraglider on the beach (dune) or riding an updraft on a mountain is still interacting with only one media (air) once they have left the ground. And while interacting with only one media, the paraglider can reposition themselves (go) to a different location, then back again, though only on a straight line parallel to a sand dune. Given the scale of a mountain vs a sand dune, more freedom of travel through the air is possible when the paraglider has a larger updraft on a mountain to work with. In that case, the paraglider can easily make it upwind or downwind given certain maneuvers to exploit the updraft created by the slope. As a note, updrafts are typically not sought after in kiteboarding, nor necessary to it. Updrafts can actually be considered detrimental to kiteboarding. (I do have one snowkiting location that does produce a stable updraft about 90% of the time - FUN, but not sailing - just boosting.)

downunder wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:36 am
How do we define a para skiing? Is it a pilot or a skier? Is Ragnarok sailing or skiing/paragliding/boarding/? Is a foil kite a paraglider when launched from a hill? Would you need a piloting/sailing license?
If you can fly from a single takeoff point "Z", land at point "A", then takeoff from point "Z" again, but land at point "B", you are flying - so long as you do not interact with the ground or another media besides air to get to those points. The scale of the relationship between these points is important, but I am sure that could be reasonably defined for most cases.

Thus if you can both fly between both of those points (in you examples), or ski (interacting and applying forces) on the snow there with a kite over head, you could reasonably be consider both a pilot or a skier depending on which way you choose to get between points. However, you are only a pilot if you actually lose contact and no longer interact with the ground to change your location significantly.


Sorry for being so long winded, but you started this dumpster fire. I am just throwing my used motor oil on it, along with some empty paint cans, and a propane tank that I 'think' is empty.

And as always, thanks for your post.

Matteo V
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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby Matteo V » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:08 pm

longwhitecloud wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:14 am
there are definitions in oxford dictionary.. attached to a mast and boom.. controlled with mainsheets .. certainly doesnt make kiting sailing.

Your excerpt of the dictionary definition contains no explanation of the differences between the physics of kiting, sailing, or flying. And moreover, it contains no physics definitions at all. This is completely inadequate when you are talking about something that has movement as it's foundation. At the time that this definition was created, the equipment was what made people think of sailing. This definition excerpt could make a building with a mast and boom on top of it a sailboat.

longwhitecloud wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:14 am
you can go directly downwind sailing ..no differential required as was your definition..
Can you clarify this statement??? I am taking what you are saying that, 'at zero water speed and zero wind speed, you think you can go down wind'??? Or do you think I made that statement or alluded to it??? And specifically, if a downwind course IS sailing, than a motor boat under no power is "sailing" if it is being blown down wind???

A physics definition of sailing should mention downwind capabilities, but those are not unique to sailing outside of the additional power large sail area adds to the possible speed over the water or other media that is interacted with. The thing that is unique about sailing, specifically modern wing (foiled) shaped sails, is that they can go anywhere when coupled with a keel or some other water interacting device (edging in TT's). Ancient (not modern) sailing was primarily done in a down wind fashion, with upwind capabilities handled by oars. Modern sails, and to some degree hull design with fins/foiled keels, changed the capabilities of sailing to include upwind. Again, just heading that one off before anyone goes there.

Put simply, in 300 AD the question was, "where are we going so we can decide a course that will take us with the winds and minimize human power".
Modern sails allowed the oars to be essentially eliminated and opened up routes that took the sailors into the wind.

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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby longwhitecloud » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:16 pm

Based on physics canoeing and sup racing are the same sport.. but we know they are not. same with so many other sports...

Ice skating, rollerskating, skateboarding, mountain boarding are all skating.. but all different sports, even then i dont agree when u are kiting you are sailing.

sailing nz didnt even know how a kite was launched.. at an intellectual property thief meeting they called.

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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby foilonfoil » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:56 pm

.
Last edited by foilonfoil on Thu May 24, 2018 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Matteo V
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Re: Kitesurfing Inside World Sailing is Illegal

Postby Matteo V » Tue May 01, 2018 1:46 am

longwhitecloud wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:16 pm
Based on physics canoeing and sup racing are the same sport.. but we know they are not. same with so many other sports...

Ice skating, rollerskating, skateboarding, mountain boarding are all skating.. but all different sports, even then i dont agree when u are kiting you are sailing.
I do believe you may be misinterpreting my motivation. To me the difference between flying, and sailing is obvious. The difference between sailing and kiting, is not so clear, but there is a difference. For sailing vs kiting, I simply state that kiting works the same as sailing, but your sail can also go above and lift you, not just pull you sideways as in sailing.

That over simplified statement ignores what I have laid out in previous posts, but it is the best way to simply explain the basics to a non-kiter.


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