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Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

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BudhaNl
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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby BudhaNl » Mon May 14, 2018 10:06 am

naishdude wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:41 am
http://www.infexion.nl/ is where I buy my lin e sets; no affiliation ...but good stuff
+1

Well made line sets.

FrederikS
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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby FrederikS » Mon May 14, 2018 11:36 am

BudhaNl wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:06 am
naishdude wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:41 am
http://www.infexion.nl/ is where I buy my lin e sets; no affiliation ...but good stuff
+1

Well made line sets.
Infexion is great! SK 99 in several thicknesses, friendly owner, competitive pricing.

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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby MutantWizard » Mon May 14, 2018 8:21 pm

Thanks guys, got a bit of research to do on all this info.

iriejohn
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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby iriejohn » Tue May 15, 2018 11:42 am

Matteo V wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:56 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:23 pm
Matteo V wrote: I also have some Marlow tight braided spectra kite line that I believe is 350kg, but still nice and thin for back lines.
AFAIK all Marlow kite line is Dyneema, not Spectra, and I guess you mean this?
Marlow Ropes wrote:Kiteline Race utilises Dyneema SK99 and is available in 1.3mm and 1.5mm diameter. While maintaining the breakload of 270kg on the 1.3mm and 360kg for the 1.5mm
Nope, this was the last version I got on closeout. Like SK90 or something? I don't remember exactly and don't care as I use it for the back lines. Wear resistance is not as good on my Marlow line as with Naish or Ozone lines. The braid seems looser and more fuzzy/mashy on the Marlow, , but much better than North or Best.

If SK90 Dyneema then it has been superceded by SK99 Dyneema. Marlow Ropes have never produced Spectra Kiteline.
And thanks for correcting me on Dyneema vs Spectra. I hope I did not confuse anyone, though they are essentially the same material for our (kiters) consideration.
Similar, but (iirc) the key differences of interest to kiters have been covered in other threads.

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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby Matteo V » Tue May 15, 2018 2:04 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:42 am
Matteo V wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:56 pm
And thanks for correcting me on Dyneema vs Spectra. I hope I did not confuse anyone, though they are essentially the same material for our (kiters) consideration.
Similar, but (iirc) the key differences of interest to kiters have been covered in other threads.
Yes, you do recall correctly. But the raw testing differences between Spectra and Dyneema have nearly the same (or more) variance as Spectra production methods between other producers. Same for Dyneema. So again, no difference as far as we are concerned.

Start another thread if you want to go down this rabbit hole. But thanks for being my "fact checker". I hope to rely on you as little as possible.

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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby iriejohn » Tue May 15, 2018 3:13 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 2:04 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:42 am
Matteo V wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:56 pm
And thanks for correcting me on Dyneema vs Spectra. I hope I did not confuse anyone, though they are essentially the same material for our (kiters) consideration.
Similar, but (iirc) the key differences of interest to kiters have been covered in other threads.
Yes, you do recall correctly. But the raw testing differences between Spectra and Dyneema have nearly the same (or more) variance as Spectra production methods between other producers. Same for Dyneema. So again, no difference as far as we are concerned.
Concluding that because two products have production variances there is "no difference as far as we are concerned" is a great back pedal attempt. :thumb:

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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby alford » Tue May 15, 2018 4:44 pm

Aside from the considerable extra cost vs buying a spool, is there anything wrong with buying the Q-Power Pro lines finished off with a sewn loop on each end? https://kiteboarding.com/proddetail.asp ... ro_lineset If they last for many years I could justify the premium cost. For reference, a new set of Slingshot lines are about the same price so not totally in left field.

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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby Matteo V » Tue May 15, 2018 6:52 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:13 pm
Concluding that because two products have production variances there is "no difference as far as we are concerned" is a great back pedal attempt. :thumb:
No back pedal from me at all. But you may have misunderstood me or I may have been unclear. Let me explain.

Spectra production method (Honeywell patent) is extruded (?)

Dyneema is gel spun (?)

Simply 2 different methods with a noticable difference at the larger diameter lines. Not much more info is available on the variance in the lower diameters where we use the line.

Other producers using these 2 methods, and/or processing the raw product into usable braids can produce a product with different testable results.

My reference was to Spectra produced as a final product in "brand x" line vs Spectra produced as a final product in "brand y". The variance between both types of Spectra is as high as or greater than the variance between Spectra and Dyneema.

Then pile on top of that higher quality control and other advanced production factors, you will find that there is no comparison of Dyneema and Spectra without specifying the final product you are comparing. Some Spectra products will exhibit more or less creep, depending on treatment, than Dyneema. Same goes for the other way around.

For our purposes, the two names Dyneema and Spectra, are the same for how we are concerned.

Fact check me a bit as I have no time now to dot my "i's".

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edt
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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby edt » Tue May 15, 2018 6:57 pm

alford wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:44 pm
Aside from the considerable extra cost vs buying a spool, is there anything wrong with buying the Q-Power Pro lines finished off with a sewn loop on each end? https://kiteboarding.com/proddetail.asp ... ro_lineset If they last for many years I could justify the premium cost. For reference, a new set of Slingshot lines are about the same price so not totally in left field.
There are problems with sewn loops especially with q-power. In a normal sleeved line the thread goes through the lines and the braid of the line is what catches and holds it. You need enough thread on a normal line to be able to carry the load of the kite and if you sew it too tight too much of the tension goes onto a single thread, but if you sew it too loose, it will work free. If you have regular 12 strand line splicing is much more reliable. Kite manufacturers like using sewn sleeved lines because it looks nice and is fast, but you need to be very careful with your sewing to do it right. Q-power is also pretty thick already so when you sew a sleeve over the q-power you will end up with a thicker sewn sleeved line than with regular 12 strand. There is an additional problem with q-power because it is straight not sewn so often a sewn sleeved q-power line will have all the tension on the cover of the line not the core. That said I have done sewn sleeved q-power lines before. I don't think I would ever do it this way again, it's ends up just being too bulky. If you want the maximum strength on a q-power line the way to do is sleeve and then figure 8 loop the ends. This creates a very bulky end of your line but I think it is the strongest option, better than sewing. If you like neat lines, then I would probably just not buy q-power. Q-power works best when you figure 8 knot it, there's really no way to avoid it. The neatest lines will be when you use 12 strand lines and splice them. Remember also that when you use sleeved q-power lines or even knotted q-power lines it will not fit through your safety system. The old fashioned safety system was a "mini-5th". this means that you didn't have a flagging line at all, the kite relied on the bridle to depower the kite and essentially just used both center lines. This is not safe for a modern kite, it has to be a single center line flagging system. So even if you buy those q-power sleeved lines you will end up having to cut one open and somehow modify it to work with single center line flagging. The whole point to q-power is you buy a spool of it, and figure 8 knot loops. This lets you make line sets at will, but of course you have to figure out what to do about the single line safety.

ps here's one way to rig q-power to fit through a modern safety system:

Image

Here you make a 10 meter long loop on the flag out line. it will fit through the safety system ok because the knot is so far up, that the bar will shoot up the amount you need to safety flag out a kite. The only problem with doing it this way is you waste 10 meters of q-power and have a bit more line in the air. I haven't done it this way yet, I think I'll try it for my next control bar if I have enough q-power left over from my last project.
Last edited by edt on Tue May 15, 2018 7:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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edt
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Re: Hard Wearing Low Stretch Lines

Postby edt » Tue May 15, 2018 6:59 pm

ps would love to hear a more in depth explanation about spectra vs dyneema matteo but of course that's for another topic. If you feel like starting one up I would definitely read it.


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