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dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

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Matteo V
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Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby Matteo V » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:10 pm
The comment above about comfort vs cool is a pretty insecure and self centered one from an obvious seat fan! Plenty of seats are uncomfortable and unsuitable for many who don't really care much about what is and isn't cool. Shows how people are pretty sensitive when it comes to discussing body type and riding styles. In the real world the divide goes something along these lines. Racers and anyone whose body shape is widest through the core as well as older demographics whose priority is to jump tend toward seats. Novices may prefer a seat as it ensures a low harness position even when the kite is flown quite high in the window..... they don't ride up, but they can give a pretty decent wedgie.

Wave, free ride foil and TT riders along with anyone who unhooks, rides a lot of toe side or has a waist narrower than their chest tend toward waist. As mentioned the biggest draw back is when they ride up and even when seated properly are harder on the abdominals when jumping.

In the end its personal and depend on both how your built and what you like to do.
Pretty much nailed it. But there is only some truth in that first statement as you will get even a few pros to admit that they know of "someone" who wears a seat for regular riding, but puts on a waist when the cameras come out. Some good evidence for the seat being superior (in a way) to the waist, is the styles that use it. Beginners need something that they do not have to fuss with. A definite +1 for a seat for everyone. Racers need the highest performance and comfort. Big boosters going for high numbers on their Woo, tend to utilize a seat harness, again - when the camera is off. This gives you a range of use from horizontal pull only (racing) to straight up vertical pull (boosting), the extreme's of a kite's directional pull, that favors the seat.

The biggest piece of evidence that a waist is the least comfortable of the two, is that EVERY YEAR we hear that "this new model is finally comfortable enough to not ride up, or crush your ribs". I mean, they don't even change the wording on the advertisement - it is just word for word. So if every year to this day, waist harnesses have been "fixed" to be finally comfortable, then you are assuming we are in the year that this dream finally comes true.

My advice is to try a seat. Yes, you should try to modify your bar first, but you would be doing yourself a huge disservice by not expanding your horizons. And make sure you give a big change like this some time. Too many times in kiteboarding have I tried something once and hated it, only to realize I did not give it enough of a chance, and then loved it in the end.

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jumptheshark
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Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:23 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm

The biggest piece of evidence that a waist is the least comfortable of the two, is that EVERY YEAR we hear that "this new model is finally comfortable enough to not ride up, or crush your ribs".
Hey now, thats pretty weak evidentiary criteria there. You gotta consider that seat harnesses don't sell well enough to warrant any marketing!

Besides, sitting is the new smoking! Seat harness's pulls from below the C of G. They nutate the pelvis, especially with high kite angles, effectively reversing the lumbar lordosis, wedging the discs and leading to an increase in pressure at the posterolateral annulus. The most common site of herniation.

but don't take it from me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

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Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby beebad » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:38 pm

pedantic

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jumptheshark
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Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:03 pm

That's the joke, sorry there is bleed from another thead. Mateo is generally the pedantic one.

Matteo V
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Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby Matteo V » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:08 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:23 pm
Besides, sitting is the new smoking!
I love that one! But what do you think, ten years from now, what will be the new sitting? Breathing?....


But yes, there are some issues with the load on your body from a seat harness. And seat harness have not changed that much since windsurfing. Thus there is quite a bit of data on the potential effects of seat harness use.

Given the advancement of waist harnesses (Jumpy, what is your favorite one now? And what year is it?), not much data is out there on the current evolution of them. So the potential is there for some issues we do not know about as well as we know about the seat harnesses.

That said, I do not personally know of anyone who has had issues with seat harnesses. I do know 4 different kiters that I witnessed get a month off (2 never went back to waist) from instantaneous injuries from their waist harnesses.

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jumptheshark
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Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:53 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:08 pm
I love that one! But what do you think, ten years from now, what will be the new sitting? Breathing?....
Well only if you do it through a cigarette

Why even ask what harness I use? You've made up your mind. I mean if the pros are using seats when no one is looking. What more need be said?

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ShaveTheWhales
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Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby ShaveTheWhales » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:46 am

Just get both or you'll turn into a Whingeing forum poster lol
Both have their pros and cons and one certainly isn't better than the other - I use both and also swap my sliding and fixed hook on both.
No need to limit yourself according to what others prefer.

I moded my seat harness with an 'ass' plate so it doesn't ever wedgy, built in rigid back support and use the widest possible spreader bar. No squeeze up.
What the 'Engine' blokes should make but I used bullet proof inserts.that are dirt cheap.
Last edited by ShaveTheWhales on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Kamikuza
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Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:09 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:23 pm
Matteo V wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm

The biggest piece of evidence that a waist is the least comfortable of the two, is that EVERY YEAR we hear that "this new model is finally comfortable enough to not ride up, or crush your ribs".
Hey now, thats pretty weak evidentiary criteria there. You gotta consider that seat harnesses don't sell well enough to warrant any marketing!

Besides, sitting is the new smoking! Seat harness's pulls from below the C of G. They nutate the pelvis, especially with high kite angles, effectively reversing the lumbar lordosis, wedging the discs and leading to an increase in pressure at the posterolateral annulus. The most common site of herniation.

but don't take it from me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
That was a really informative video, thanks :thumb: I'm going to have to see about changing out my seat harness now...

Matteo V
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Posts: 682
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
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Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world

Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby Matteo V » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:53 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:53 pm
Why even ask what harness I use? You've made up your mind.
No, I have not made up my mind. I am actually really interested in the latest iteration of the Ride Engine harnesses. But last year, I saw a lot of them with the shell broken near the stitching. So..........why not just answer me, LetsFlyaKite?....I mean....jumpy. It is a simple question, and though we have our differences, I value your opinion. I also have seen some very good posts from you. So if you can put differences aside, what do you use (year and model)?

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jumptheshark
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Re: dynamic differences with seat and waist harness

Postby jumptheshark » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:55 pm

Bullet proof ass plate! Oh man, marketing dept could run with that...... you know if there was ever going to be an add for a seat.

Have been in the first version of the Ride Engine harness with both slider and hook. Rigid harnesses suit the slider far more than the hook, but its fine for the amount of time I spend on a TT these days. Had to replace the velcro belt after 2 seasons but other than that is still looks and feels new. Fresh water use.


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