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Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

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sabraxas
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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby sabraxas » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:52 pm

grigorib wrote:
I wouldn't talk that dismissively about greatest passion of my life be it foils and/or LEIs.
It is sarcasm, Grigorib. Another point of view, to think out of the box about our "passions".

A bar is nothing else but a stick with a hole in the middle. Or you can call it like Pete Cabrinha, coming from the future, does: "The safe and secure interface to precisely command our kites."

There is a fairy tale about kite design. This is not the real history about Manu Bertin, Legaignoux Bros, Roberto Ricci, Don Montague and Robby Naish.

Just a fairy tale:

In the first interview to hire a kite designer there were a dozen of the greatest aeronautical engineers. They never had seen an inflatable kite, cause it didnt exist.
The exercise was to design something, a kite, to navigate the waters with a surfboard in light to moderate winds.
They all draw designs of double skinned high AR wings, AR up to ten, very thinny profiles. Very flat designs. From 25 meters (like a paraglidings) to 3 meters total area. Some were rigid wings of carbon with flaps. Another were made of fabric, ripstop.

After one hour came the director of the brand new company. He took a look at every design, shook head, and finally said: "Hey, guys... We need that this special kite, this "something", floats and relaunch in deep water, uh!!!"
("And we need that this special kite can be stored in the trunk of a car and it can be built with low production cost")

The fairy tale ends at this point. But it is said that every aeronautical engineers refused to design that "special" kite and quite the job.

And then inflatable kites were born.


grigorib wrote:
...I would buy one or another or dump both for anything better, just as hydrofoil made my kitesurfboards become home décor.
Well, I wouldnt treat dismissively my kites or my kiteboards.
Unless I could do a handle pass with my hydrofoil or I never could have done a single handle pass with my kiteboards... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by sabraxas on Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

foilholio
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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby foilholio » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:37 am

grigorib wrote: 95% of launches I make are not suitable for foil kite. Countless drift launches and self landings,
It's my opinion and experience, but I think foils are far superior in self launch/land and drift launching. The places I have and can self land are quite surprising. Can even do it onto a space just big enough to stand by pulling kite in on it's front lines while flying.

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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby grigorib » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:15 am

foilholio wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:37 am
grigorib wrote: 95% of launches I make are not suitable for foil kite. Countless drift launches and self landings,
It's my opinion and experience, but I think foils are far superior in self launch/land and drift launching. The places I have and can self land are quite surprising. Can even do it onto a space just big enough to stand by pulling kite in on it's front lines while flying.
I meant actual drift launches and water landings by walking out of trees’ wind shadow pretty far out first. And side-off shore winds when wind is blocked by houses on land and it takes a long walk out before you can drift launch at all.
Add gusty winds and foils folding on you mid-air in lulls and turbulence. Even an inverted LEI is not much fun but with a foil it’s even less good of a time.

I have no problem with self launch/landing either foil or LEI, but uninflated wet foil is not a pretty sight for me.

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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby foilholio » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:08 am

Yes Tube is better in wind shadows. But if you can launch a tube then you can launch a foil. If you can stand where you launch even easier to launch foil. You can inflate and launch on the water. Packing a foil on the water is quite a bit harder than tube, but not impossible. Many people kite with foils in places that are quite gusty, parks, mountains etc. Tube is easier but foil not impossible.

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Pump me up
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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby Pump me up » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:47 am

grigorib wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:15 pm
I think PMU must have ended up having multiple orgasm through reading the article.
:thumb: :bye:
I REALLY love this article! What I've been saying all the time!
:pump:

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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby kiterocky » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:48 pm

The main problem around my spot are the self rescue with foil kite...so many people now with hydrofoil and they want to copy the race rider with foil kite too...but at the end of the day so many time the people cannot relaunch and cannot come back to the beach with self rescue tecnique...rescue boat have to move ..why dont use an Easy pump kite now with hydrofoil?? Hydrofoil have so much performance u dont Need foil upwind superior performance ...bè safe

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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby Pump me up » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:06 pm

Summarising the points from Flysurfer's Ralf Groesl:
Toby wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:49 pm
Interesting blog from Ralf Groesel, kite designer:

1) Ram airs have INFERIOR handling
"Now this is where the trouble starts..."

2) Ram airs have INFERIOR jumping and higher drag
"Lift in kitesurfing defines the ability to jump high. A Tube-kite profile has the advantage here over the Soft-kite..."

3) Ram airs have an INFERIOR "heavy" feel because of entrapped air


4) Ram airs have INFERIOR relaunch
"Taking everything into consideration, a Soft-kite is NOT easier to restart than a Tube-kite, while a Tube-kite has the advantage of being a permanent floating device.

5) Ram airs are MORE EXPENSIVE


6) Conclusion
"It’s the Tube-kite that stands victorious."
" From a designers point of view, (INFLATABLES) shine in every aspect and their simplicity in design is the key to controlling their complexity. Tube-kites rule most of the sport related requirements..."

Pumpy :pump:
:mosh:

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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby PullStrings » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:53 pm

kiterocky wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:48 pm
The main problem around my spot are the self rescue with foil kite...so many people now with hydrofoil and they want to copy the race rider with foil kite too...but at the end of the day so many time the people cannot relaunch and cannot come back to the beach with self rescue tecnique...rescue boat have to move ..why dont use an Easy pump kite now with hydrofoil?? Hydrofoil have so much performance u dont Need foil upwind superior performance ...bè safe
What he said :thumb: You don't need ram airs on a foilboard....i will also add you don't need on a twin tip...or a surfboard
They should not be on the water at all
Why do people insist on being on a very unpopular kite...only 4 % worldwide use them

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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby grigorib » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:54 pm

PullStrings wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:53 pm
...Why do people insist on being on a very unpopular kite...only 4 % worldwide use them
because foils:
- kick ass staying in the air in the lightest of the winds and you need to be able to race in 3 m/s
- they go upwind like mad (but also high AR is a big factor in that too)
- they don't leave you pumping and messing with hardened tubes and valves with bare fingers in the crispy frosty winter air
- have awesome hangtime, even if you don't jump the highest on them
- they're compact for travel
- they look beautiful and mesmerizing
- in ideal launch/landing conditions and in steady winds they're pleasure to ride even for hardcore LEI rider

Like a 60's sport car or 70's muscle car - they're not the safest, they require more maintenance, you wouldn't take them into iffy conditions, they are expensive but boy, they're beautiful, they make you feel good and you win some competitions with them

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Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby TomW » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:05 pm

grigorib wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:54 pm
PullStrings wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:53 pm
...Why do people insist on being on a very unpopular kite...only 4 % worldwide use them
because foils:
- kick ass staying in the air in the lightest of the winds and you need to be able to race in 3 m/s
- they go upwind like mad (but also high AR is a big factor in that too)
- they don't leave you pumping and messing with hardened tubes and valves with bare fingers in the crispy frosty winter air
- have awesome hangtime, even if you don't jump the highest on them
- they're compact for travel
- they look beautiful and mesmerizing
- in ideal launch/landing conditions and in steady winds they're pleasure to ride even for hardcore LEI rider

Like a 60's sport car or 70's muscle car - they're not the safest, they require more maintenance, you wouldn't take them into iffy conditions, they are expensive but boy, they're beautiful, they make you feel good and you win some competitions with them

And they never flap around and luff. they are totally smooth and even in power delivery. For me this is the only reason I enjoy them more than LEI. Period.
If someone makes a lightweight LEI that can hang in the air in 6-7 knots and not flap when depowered, i´d be very interested.


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