Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

forum for kitesurfers


foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby foilholio » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:19 pm

tautologies wrote: Foil, I think your numbers are off. No way north sold 60k kites. (?).
Well I am thinking the number is too low, but play with the figures. It is just a rough calc.
tautologies wrote: Look at the other product lines / brands that are folded in under. In any case sure you can say that direct benefits you, but best proved that foothold and growth kite companies needs presence....its not the resellers per se, but that we choose kites based on what other people ride. I'm guessing once we select a brand most are fairly stable in the next choice. ..so kite brands need people to use the kites on the local beach... ...and right now the best way to do that is schools, established shops etc.. That model works for this industry.
Kiting has yet to see a super compelling product appear that is direct, their is no Tesla or Apple. Pansh is I would say half way there, their prices leave people in disbelief, they lack a good bar and whole package. If the kites were exactly as good as Flysurfer or dare I say even better at their current prices they would wipe the market for foils. Switch are not really that cheap, and the designs well.. I am not going to comment.
iriejohn wrote: All you describe below takes place in a free market. Exactly how would you recommend that this market be 'reformed' and by which mechanisms?
Free market? Sure look at for instance the legal trouble Tesla has faced. There is hidden cartels doing very shady things. The reason no big brands will undercut their resellers and go direct is because the resellers will all drop them for another big brand and bad mouth them till they are out of the market.

Reform? Consumers just need to stop buying from the big brands. The brands that are so big they are scared of resellers, pretty sad.
Foxi wrote: I agree .. taken from a clip on youtube from their Dutone Launch meeting in Tarifa
Wow they really take the cool aid whole don't they, even their accounting is in the wrong year.

~33,000 kites I am off a bit there. That is a tiny tiny supply of a product.
Kykeon wrote: I'm with you for leaner kite companies!
Especially when it comes to team riders.
I really don't care what they do. If people want to pay for supporting team riders go ahead. As long as there is choice not to I am happy.

What happened to best was actually quite funny. They kind of proved the point that team riders do not equal success.
Kykeon wrote: But I bet you do not run (or contribute to the business part) of a company with physical goods that operates globally, do you?
Are you gathering that from me posting here or I like Pansh lol.

Kykeon wrote: If a company goes through distribution, in order to sell say 20M worth kites and other products it needs
A few hundred
accounts, hundreds of shipments, small temporary storage space etc
So in the case of North this is 33000 kites. This is a minuscule number for products. There is direct businesses that would ship that per day to individual addresses. Amazon ships 1600000 items PER DAY. Accounts and payments are all automated IT problems. Seriously storage for 33000 kites? This is a joke right?
Kykeon wrote: For direct you break your balls for a single chicken loop that did not get the payment through or did not pass customs
Really payments are an IT problem, there is no ball breaking. Customs is the customers problem, why is it your problem they live in a shit country. Tell em to get some guns and have a revolution.
Kykeon wrote: The biggest problem is that this does not scale and you can't benefit from economy of scale.
Rubbish it scales fine, again Amazon.
purdyd wrote: there isn't a business model in place anywhere that sells to the public at the same price it sells to distributors or retailers
Certainly is. Most kite brands can be had at factory prices, just not easy to do. There is plenty of products that can be bought direct for less than shops buy them.
purdyd wrote: that is because those distributors and retailers incur costs that would otherwise have to be absorbed by the manufacturer
Nope, standing at a counter is not a necessary cost, nor is triple shipping items, stacking shelves, or talking shit.
purdyd wrote: if a manufacturer undercuts the price that a retailer sells for, the retailer will not sell that product
Exactly my point the reseller is not needed. If consumer can buy for the same price as reseller, reseller can't resell because he does not add any or much value. I would even go to say because of the hassle of some resellers they actually reduce value.
purdyd wrote: i think direct to consumer only works if a small portion of the sales for kiteboarding is using that model
Direct only works if the product is compelling. That means price and quality are at a compelling point. Like really low price and reasonable quality or reasonable price and really high quality. Both compelling.
purdyd wrote: even best kiteboarding which started out direct sales move to include retailers because retailers do perform a function
But Best failed after they went with the resellers! Overnight their prices went up after the went with resellers, they then became less compelling.
purdyd wrote: now sponsored riders and fancy promotion videos? I guess the market can vote with their dollars if those things are worth paying for.
Exactly the market can choose. The question is what compelling direct kite products are there? The only easy one I think is Pansh, if you source any of the other major brands direct or say get closeouts then they are better then say Switch.

iriejohn
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:04 pm
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: 50.7752° N, 0.9077° W
Style: None
Gear: This 'n that
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Noviomagus Reginorum

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby iriejohn » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:53 pm

foilholio wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:19 pm
iriejohn wrote: All you describe below takes place in a free market. Exactly how would you recommend that this market be 'reformed' and by which mechanisms?
Free market? Sure look at for instance the legal trouble Tesla has faced. There is hidden cartels doing very shady things. The reason no big brands will undercut their resellers and go direct is because the resellers will all drop them for another big brand and bad mouth them till they are out of the market.

Reform? Consumers just need to stop buying from the big brands. The brands that are so big they are scared of resellers, pretty sad.
Oooh, I do so love a nice conspiracy!

Perhaps you would care to share with us exactly which are the "hidden cartels" and what are the "shady things" they are doing?

Thanks.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby foilholio » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:47 am

Well, in kitesurfing it's more you can observe the effects given you know what has happened in other industries. On example was the fever that was against Best and pushing them to switch to resellers. There have been and continue campaigns against any direct competition. Even brands that cut out one level of reseller ( the distributor) get targeted. I have often seen stuff on forums that originates back to resellers. Pansh has attracted the ire of a few of them, particularly in the UK.


What is funny is this going on in such a small industry. Emeram 33000 kites, that is some kind of joke. With those numbers I wouldn't be worried about competition, but the very existence of kiteboarding. Resellers push the angle they keep the sport safe with schools and careful guidance on gear. When in reality they increase prices to ridiculous levels that is choking the life out of the sport. The real nefarious thing they do though, the thing the big brands would love, is the restrict market access to any competition. The effect of that is there is little to no incentive for innovation because no one else can get to market. The incentive to destroy direct is both there for the big brands and their resellers.

iriejohn
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:04 pm
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: 50.7752° N, 0.9077° W
Style: None
Gear: This 'n that
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Noviomagus Reginorum

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby iriejohn » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:34 pm

Oh, so after all there are no "hidden cartels" doing "shady things". Thanks for clearing that up. :thumb:
foilholio wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:47 am
Well, in kitesurfing it's more you can observe the effects given you know what has happened in other industries. On example was the fever that was against Best and pushing them to switch to resellers. There have been and continue campaigns against any direct competition. Even brands that cut out one level of reseller ( the distributor) get targeted. I have often seen stuff on forums that originates back to resellers. Pansh has attracted the ire of a few of them, particularly in the UK.

What is funny is this going on in such a small industry. Emeram 33000 kites, that is some kind of joke. With those numbers I wouldn't be worried about competition, but the very existence of kiteboarding. Resellers push the angle they keep the sport safe with schools and careful guidance on gear. When in reality they increase prices to ridiculous levels that is choking the life out of the sport. The real nefarious thing they do though, the thing the big brands would love, is the restrict market access to any competition. The effect of that is there is little to no incentive for innovation because no one else can get to market. The incentive to destroy direct is both there for the big brands and their resellers.


Exactly which unlawful activities do the "big brands" engage in which "restrict market access to any competition"?

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby foilholio » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:57 am

I didn't say there was no hidden cartels? or that some things done weren't shady.

I thought just now I didn't say anything specific they were doing is illegal, though I am sure some would be, lying for example. Hard to connect back to brands without more evidence, can only observe behaviors, plus rumors on various things some from the horses mouth.

Restriction of market access, was because of support for the reseller business model. If a big brand supported direct it would dilute the work done to discredit the direct model. In turn would bring more market to direct and the existing and future direct brands. Direct has a very small barrier to entry, you can target niche and gain traction. This can't be done in the reseller model. It would cost many millions to just find a few customers. With the reseller model as well, you can keep a degree of separation from illegal practices. If the sales guy on the floor bad mouths Switch in every way possible with complete fabrications, that's got nothing to do with the reseller owner, or the that distributor email, or that dealer meeting.

Sorry you don't get coordinated attacks or behaviour without coordination and that means cartel.

User avatar
Kykeon
Medium Poster
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:25 pm
Kiting since: 2014
Style: Freeride
Gear: .
Brand Affiliation: $iemens

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby Kykeon » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:30 am

foilholio wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:19 pm
Amazon ships 1600000 items PER DAY.
You mean Kindles and alexas or as a reseller?
Why these manufacturers do not sell direct?
foilholio wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:19 pm
Accounts and payments are all automated IT problems
If you own/run a company, it is YOUR problem and it's much easier(and cheaper) to handle 100 accounts than 10.000
foilholio wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:19 pm
Customs is the customers problem, why is it your problem they live in a shit country. Tell em to get some guns and have a revolution.
Sure, instead of finding one distributor for e.g. Russia to handle customs, vat and the rest and eventually sell thousand kites,
you just try to do it on your own until you decide not to ship there anymore.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby foilholio » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:37 am

No I mean as in Amazon direct sells. I assume most products there go manufacturer>amazon>customer. If you say that makes them a reseller, well so are the manufacturers. The manufacturer resells, materials, labor, equipment and building time/rent/hire. The point of direct is removing unnecessary fees between the customer and maker. One of those would be that guy hanging out at the counter, not needed.

I highly doubt dealing with 100 vs 10,000 is much more difficult. It's an IT problem.

I am pretty certain china direct sells into russia quite easily? If you have trouble with customers in Russia, I would guess you would stop selling to there. That's their problem. If Russians really want your product they will find a way to get it I am sure. I would be highly surprised anyone is selling a 1000 kites to Russia, given Emeram's tiny supply.

wrogu
Medium Poster
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:12 am
Kiting since: 1
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby wrogu » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:00 am

foilholio wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:37 am
No I mean as in Amazon direct sells. I assume most products there go manufacturer>amazon>customer. If you say that makes them a reseller, well so are the manufacturers. The manufacturer resells, materials, labor, equipment and building time/rent/hire. The point of direct is removing unnecessary fees between the customer and maker. One of those would be that guy hanging out at the counter, not needed.

I highly doubt dealing with 100 vs 10,000 is much more difficult. It's an IT problem.

I am pretty certain china direct sells into russia quite easily? If you have trouble with customers in Russia, I would guess you would stop selling to there. That's their problem. If Russians really want your product they will find a way to get it I am sure. I would be highly surprised anyone is selling a 1000 kites to Russia, given Emeram's tiny supply.
If emeram is a tiny supplier than how big every other supplier is ?! (Given BM is said to be the biggest supplier...or for sure in top 3)

How small our market is, worldwide!

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby foilholio » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:16 am

Yep Kiteboarding is apparently a niche sport. I am guessing brands like Board Riding Maui sell a couple 100 kites a year.

User avatar
PinkDuotonePride
Rare Poster
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:28 pm
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: Kite Beach Cabo Verde
Style: Fabulous
Gear: Core
Brand Affiliation: Duotone

Re: Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

Postby PinkDuotonePride » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:26 am

Tell me, what's this got to do with me changing my name and who is this Foil Troll? Foils are out and out dangerous, no self-respecting retailer would advise their use, there are countless episodes going back to the dawn of kiting time of cheap foil crap in the wrong hands getting the lifeboats out. As to the pillock's anti retailer stance, ask what happened to the once buoyant land foil business once direct sell entered that market.. Oh guess what.. it collapsed. The market needs boots on the ground, enthusiasts profiting at local level to ensure continued distribution, especially for niche products like kite surfing where the biggest competitor is the inability of huge swathes of the mainstream population to be able to even swim and half of those that do, fear deep water. There are enough competitive elements to the existence of kite shops, do we really need another from dicks like this? Clearly there's no market for his cheap foil crap in their own world since all their resellers have already been killed off by attitudes like his, we don't need him here, the guys a dick. Where's 'pump me up' when we need him.


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], downunder, evan, Google [Bot], Jukka, maffhieu, ShaveTheWhales, slim_charles and 17 guests

cron