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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:30 pm 
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FIRST, let me say this may be a long post, so if you aren't up for it, you may as well stop reading now. :smile:

I know QR's(quick releases) are a touchy subject and I even expect to get feedback maybe even flaming on this, but let's discuss it anyway. I am ready for it and willing to take it without it becoming a pissing match. So feel free to let me have it! That being said...let's do this!

I have a confession to make! I don't know what one would consider my skill level as far as how advanced, but...here's my confession....

"""I still ride with a chicken loop and a static loop on my bar only. I make no use of any QR's. I am still flying old school style I guess. The only quick release on my setup would be the one that SS just recently added to their chicken loop."""

I don't have any problems staying hooked in while flying...inverted as well. I can recall one instance where I thought the chicken loop was hooked in good but was only partially over the hook and it came off surprising me. Aside from that, no probs staying hooked in while being invertied, twisting, looping or whatever.

Their has also been ONE instance where I was hooked into the chicken loop and was headed into a really bad situation, WAY overpowered(as I most normally am), and a quick release may have been handy there for getting me loose from my kite. Here's the situation in a nutshell:

"I was being hammered by an unexpected and unseen squall...winds went from 17 up 30ish for just about 45 seconds, but that was plenty long enough to have me being blown toward the shore in no time and at a high rate of speed. Luckily I had the kite low(as I normally do since I ride so powered up) so I was just SCREAMING downwind instead of being lofted. Had I not got loose from the kite, I would have made it to the shore and into the parked cars there. For sure an ugly situation."

Now, I know a QR may have been real handy in this stuation if I would of had one, and more importantly if it was a properly fucntioning one. But then, had I had one and tried to use it and it failed, I would prolly be DEAD today! I don't think I am ready to place my life in the hands of a QR that might work.

I've been flying huge kites for alot of years, so it's pretty much second nature to me(not trying to sound like an "arrogant prick" here) on how to get loose from one when I need to. Obviously if you have to think about it in these critical times, chances are you wont be able to think quick enough. Anyway, without even thinking about how to get loose from my kite in this situation, I just reacted.... by letting go of the bar and grabbing the chicken loop with both of my hands and pulled it off of my harness hook and let the kite go and the leash do it's job. End of ordeal. Unfortunately, most people in this situation would react by pulling harder on the bar trying to unhook from it, thus powering the kite further and making it harder to get loose. Also, I know if I had been in the main loop, letting go of the bar wouldn't have done anything for depowering the kite, but I think I would prolly still have reacted the same way and just used my hands the best I could to get that sucker off of the hook. Also, I'd like to add that what I say may not apply to everyone as I am rarely in my main loop at all since I rig a kite size so that I am pretty much fully lit when sheeted out...and from what I can tell from this forum, this isn't everyones normal style of riding either.

My point here: I'm not saying quick releases are bad or dangerous..on the contrary. They can be a life saver IF they work when you need them to. BUT, IF they don't, you ass is in a serious jam! If you are using QR's test them often and under really heavy load because you ARE permanantly attaching yourself to your kite if the thing wont work! The reason I have yet to start employing them for myself is because of the above situation I described that I went through. I just know damn well had I been shackled in and the shackle failed me, I wouldn't be here writing this today. Furthermore, because of my background with kites, I dont think reaching for a quick release would be second nature to me at all since it's not something that I am USED to doing and if I was usuing one and found myself in a situation, then I'd have to THINK about what I have to do to get loose...and we all know their isn't much time for thinking when you're being slung around like a rag doll.

Also, I do this move, where I am riding toe side, and I then turn my board further into the wind and spin completly around, like doing a backwards 360 but with the board never leaving the surface of the water. I suppose I COULD add some more style to this move and do a handle pass behind my back, but that's kinda hard with a leash(which I refuse to ride without), so I just hold my bar above my head with one hand and do the rotation underneath of the bar with the other hand dragging the water giving the illusion/appearance that I am turning myself around with that hand on the water. I don't see how I could do things like this if I don't have the option of unhooking from both the chicken loop AND the main loop so I can put the bar over my head. I'm still not using a shackle or any other QR aside from the one being built INTO the chicken loop now by Slingshot, and I have no plans to start anytime in the near future. I have too many things that I like to do totally unhooked to be bothered with being semi-permanantly attached to the chicken loop.

So...am I wrong? Am I being dangerous? And if I'm not endangering others, do you feel I am endangering myself? After having my style of riding described to you, do you guys think I SHOULD be using a QR for my own personal safety? Also, has anyone here ever REALLY needed to make use of their QR and it NOT open? I'm guessing the answer to the last question is "NO" because if the situation is/was bad enough and he couldn't get loose, he wont be telling about here. Another question is how do you guys that use QR's do unhooked moves....or do you just not do any?

I want to hear what you guys think. I know most use a QR of some sort and when I go to the beach, I am for sure one of the odd ones there for not being shackled...but I like riding this way. I get an occasional comment from time to time from other riders asking why the hell I don't come up to speed on the QR's, but I feel I AM up to speed on them and just making my own decision for my own style. I also feel like FOR ME, they will be more of a danger than safety because of the reflexes and reactions that me and my body are already used to doing from fying traction kites for more than 10 years.

So that's my confession, and the reason I think like I do. Anyone here care to comment or help to influence the way I think about it? I'm all ears and open to anything any of you might have to say. I even welcome the flaming and other you may feel like saying, but be IF you decide to reply in a negative way or to flame me, sign in please or at least sign a name. I won't be replying to any CRAP that comes from ANON. Again, I welcome the crap, but let us know who you are that's saying it. Fair enough?

Johnny


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:33 pm 
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wait....this doesn't sound right. QUICK releases are a great thing. My original post prolly isnt worded right. I LOVE that the new SS bar has a QR on the chicken loop. My main post is more about being SHACKLED to the kite, not about QR's. QR's that are being used in line somewhere like the new SS bar are FINE by me. Again, not dissing QR's, just not agreeing on being shackled to the kite.

Johnny


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:00 am
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Location: Seattle, WA, USA
I personally think everyone should have some sort of QR. The choice is wether you use a QR shackle or a QR chicken. I think that's a personal choice.

Personally I ride shackled but have alwasy been a little uneasy about the possibility of it not releasing. Now I am seriously looking at the releasable chickens. See Quick Release Chicken thread. I like your comments about grabbing the loop and disconnecting. I used to do that too and it generally works fine. However what if shit happens, like a line break and the kite does a powered spiral near land...it happened to a friend when a pigtail on his brand new kitebroke. Sometimes the power in the line may be too great and a QR can save your butt.

One argument would be to use both. That way you have a back up system. BTW I started using shackles because my chicken would pop out and the kite would go full power on me while trying to hook back in...not fun...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:37 pm 
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Johnny please read me post in

thread New QR Chicken Loop For Any Bar

THX


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1622
Location: Portugal - Algarve - Faro
Johnny ive seen a 2003 fuel today and the chicken loop doesnt have any safety system.

All the bars the dealer have here none have quick release. When does that new bar come out?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:55 pm 
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Johnonymous, I think you are greatly underestimating your reflexes in a crisis. LEI's are so much stronger than you.
Although 99 percent of the time you can rely on your kiteskill to get out of bad situations, there only has to be one instance you can't. I have been flying traction kites for many years as well, but the one time one of the steering lines broke near shore in 25 knots it was pure luck that made me walk away in once piece.
I dislike complex 'safety'line setups that don't do much more than be in the way and get you tangled up, but a QR is something I don't ride without. I use the wipika one. Simple, effective, not a hassle at all to use and off course, safe.

Hopefully, you'll never have to use it, but you just never know what might happen...

Shabby


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:58 pm 
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Windman, thanks for the reply. I understand this to be the case for alot....coming out of loop and not able to get back in. I must say I have been there before too, but I was tired. I suppose you could just let go of the kite and deploy the leash at that time. Happened to me once pretty far from shore...came unhooked from chicken and was really powered. I didn't want to let go of the bar that far out and risk leash failure and lost kite, or tangled lines or something, so I jumped. I just did a jump unhooked, intentionally overflew the kite just a bit so I'd have somewhat slack lines when I landed, then reconected. It seems to me though that if you can do a pull ups(chin up) for exercise, no reason why you couldn't pull yourself up to your bar to reconnect. If you can do pull ups but cant pull yourself up to the bar, sounds like you are ready for a break anyway. Shouldnt kite fatigued.

Hey tomtom,
Actually, I read that entire thread. I almost posted my message there but I wanted to start a new one to help 'resurrect' it.

I totally support QR's, it's shackling to a kite that I question.

The bar that you made a link to is something I have been considering. They are up at Watersports West(local surfshop) and I check em out every time I go there...have yet to get one yet. Have you tried it? How it is?

Personally, I think the QR SlingShot is putting on their chickenloop will be enough for me since I rarely ever even use the main loop...unless the wind is really low or drops on me.

I agree 100% that a QR is essential tool. I guess the topic IS something to the effect of to shackle or not. I'm no trying to put QR's into question here....just shackling. And I also wish to see what people say about my not using a shackle of any sort.

Johnny


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:20 pm 
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Location: Spain/Italy
Hi Johnny,
Great thread thanks, same sort of thing I'm trying to get the Italians to think about, I think you have it easier btw.
Italy is snap shackleland.
You have a ton more expeience kiting than I do so it's not my place to give you any advice but would like to pass on a couple of experiences I've had and how I feel safe also to other people thinking about this.

I've had to detach myself from a traction kite twice in a dangerous situation, the first time was when I was still using a snap shackle, I got lofted very suddenly and violently, up 3-4 metres, then horrizontal about 30-40 m, (whole thing took about 2 seconds I reckon) it was really fast, when a gust hit my kite as I past it overhead, I was lucky I was in the shallows and didn't get hurt but the thing that made me think was that I only had time to release the snap shackle after it was all over. A friend had seen it happen and we laughed about it after, he said it looked like a 30's comedy flick and that I'd hooked onto the back of a train.

After this I rethought my safety ideas and started using the prolimit QR spreader bar which has been discussed in the thread Snap Shackle or QR spreader bar
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... 83&forum=1
I started launching and landing hooked out and hooking in and out of the depower it potentially dangerous situations, passing the kite overhead on land etc, if you keep the kite at the edge of the window you can do this even in quite strong wind (not gusty though, hooked in with the kite low is best imo), but anyway if you can't hold your kite on full power it's too big imo, unless you're lookin to break records.
The second time I had to release I was trimming the Mastair and the kite was pulling to one side and closing a tip and basically acting really dangerous, diving down into the power zone on its own and shit, anyway in one of these dives i got pulled up and horizontal but with both hands still on the bar I hooked out while in the air and still attempting to steer the kite, dropping the bar to the leash just before touching down, sweet.
I couldn't have don't that if I was shackled.

All in all I like being able to hook in and out and you can have a lot better arms control of the kite in some situations and if you see shit coming you can unhook and just hold on with your hands (the ultimate quick release as Hernan sez) until it's past. Only drawback is sometimes, like when swimming towards the kite you can loose the depower from the hook and it'll go to the leash but it's really no big deal and you can stop this with a mod like the one in the thread Safe Q/R Spreader Bar Hook Block
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... 48&forum=1

Obviously your own personal safety is a very personal thing and so not for me or you or anyone to say what others should do but my reasoning on this goes like this:

If you are in shit or the shit is about to hit the fan and have to release a snap shackle, you have to take one hand off the bar, find the shackle, hope it'll open, hope the fixed loop won't catch in the spreader hook, and if it opens you loose control of the kite completely because you're holding the bar with one hand.

If you use a QR bar you can hook out with both hands on the bar and still control the kite to some extent depending on the situation obviously, you still have the same QR option in an emergency and the fixed loop has nowhere to catch. It is also a lot more reliable than a shackle, except maybe a wichard.

In your case a QR bar would leave you all of your current advantages plus a QR if you ever needed one.

About the time you let go of the bar and unhooked the chicken from the hook for example you just would have released the QR hook.
Could you explain how you did that btw because even depowered the kite mustv'e been pulling a lot or was it down?

Jo


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:33 pm 
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Sorry for bad english i hope that you understand me

I have not try yet. And unfortunately it was not test in any magazin or... for relase power. But i hold one in my hand in shop and i have very good feeling because it was very very simple and this is most important. It is very cheep in europe 39 euro. I did not like QR chicken loop. I have two Naish and Flysurfer it works but: I dont want find relase triger in panic and i want keep chicken loop simple and small. Other reason

I have different four kite until now

On every i have 3 different QR system

What you thing about is this normal situation?

In panic i must first remember whitch one i use a how it works because every work on different princip. etc...

I thing QR must be harness based. This is also AIRUSH policy.

One QR to every kite one system one reflex!

To shackled unshackled:

I think that shackle is dangerous but i also thing that unwanted drop chicken loop while waterrestart or jump is also dangerous.But you say that is not prob for you

So i think somenthing between like wipika chicken loop with center rope is good.

But like i say in other tread wipika based QR (takoon, gaastra, wipika, mauimagic) was labor tested in german magazin like unfunctionable and dangerous (huge relase power).

So in my opinien ideal QR until now does not exist.

It must by (for me)
Harnes based
Very simple and reliable
have hook not shacle
and have option to fix chicken loop when kiter want


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:58 pm 
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Location: www.tbks.net FL
Hey Jo,
You make some good points and share some good experiences. You had an incident that NOT being shackled into got you out of..and these are the things I'm talking about here. I care less about how little experience you have in comparison..what you guys have to say to me is important to me just the same.

About letting go of the bar and manually unhooking myself. Kite was not crashed. On the contrary. It was pulling like a train. And now that I think about it more, I recall 2 times I've had to do this, not just the one. The second time was with a broken steering line. The kite was just doing cirlces in the air and dragging me relentlessly. Which brings me to another thought. It was said that I maybe couldnt do this with a broken line....but I have.

To explain it to you Jo....I dunno if I can give more details or if their is more to give. I let go of the bar to reach down and grab the bull by the horns....I reached down and grabbed the chickeb loop. Here. I will get VERY detailed. Once I let go of the bar, my left hand actually never grabbed ahold of the chicken loop or the line but rather went right to work trying to manually push the chicken loop line down off of the spreader bar hook. My right hand, after I was finished wiping my ass with it, grabbed the chicken loops line just above the loop itself and was pulling like a mofo on it to ease as much tension from the loop connection to the harness as I could. Viola, left hand pushed the line down off from the hook. This was when I was being blown to shore in a squall.

When I had a broken line, the force seemed too great for me to be able to get the thing to slide down and off with my left hand pushing it down. In that instance I did grab ahold of the chicken loop line with both hands and pulled for all I was worth. It made enough slack for the loop to fall off on it's own. Situation resolved.

I understand that these things happen very fast....been there. I understand that the kites are way stronger than we are. I also understand that if you are not fatigued, you should have enough upper body strength to lift yourself up for chin ups...if you can't, maybe you shouldnt be kiteboarding. I know that when you are being pulled by something, it may take a bit more muscle to be able to pull yourself towards whats pulling you, but again, I feel if you cant do this, you are either fatigued or too out of shape to be riding.

I want to see the QR's either built into the chicken loop line and the main static line, like on the Takoons(though their chicken loop is kind of like snap shackling..but I'm referring to their QR's in line, not the chicken loops itself), or on the spreader bar itself(I'm not saying Takoon has the best or best functioning system, I'm just saying that they have a QR on both loops). NOT using a snap shackle to attach the loop to us. IMO, this is suicidal in the event of shackle release failure! I just cant seem to bring myself to attaching myself to a kite this strong with a shackle that may or may not work.

I think you are doing right Jo by trying to change the train of thought over there where you live. Keep trying. You may be saving lives! Using a snap shackle to ATTACH to your kite is NOT the right answer! IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Johnny


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