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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 6:16 pm 
I totally agree with Jo Macdonald: A chicken loop with QR (non-shackled in) gives you a chance to avoid potentially dangerous situations in advance by quickly getting out of the loop beforehand. An extra little plastic tube gets rid of the problem of the loop falling out when relaunching. Only problem is that you cannot jump rotations well: for this a shackle system like the kiteproshop bar is essential, or you will not be able to untangle your lines while remaining attached to your permanent safety. Or does anybody have a solution to this non-shackled in?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 7:05 pm 
i used to use the flysurfer release system on a peter lynn, back curl, spreader and this was great it never fel out but would releae when needed, but i've now modified all my kites to end in a simple 4mm steel ring. the release line from my wichard shackle is simply velcroed above the steel ring onto each kites depower loop.

basicaly i have a shackle on my harness with a velcro tab that ataches to the depower line, so i always know where it is and every kite is the same, the other good system i've sen is a german one, not solid, that is spreader bar based and has a metal pad that you tap to release.

i think we'll see some new kit later this season, but for now everyone is using the their own system.

i think all kites should come with asteel ring on the end of the depower line and come with a release on this that can be removed so a shackle canbe used it you prefer, then we all have the choice to use identical systems.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 2:00 am 
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Location: Hamburg, Germany
refering to the original message:

dude, riding shackeled in is a personal style thingie.

i've had a few occasions without shackle where the little bugger slipped from my hook when i was pretty powered up and already riding for a few hours and i couldn't get back in by myself. one time i had to let go of the bar, the other times i was near coast and some helpful dude got me back in.
shackeled in that doesn't happen to me.
i also had a few times where i didn't think much - between the 'OH' and the 'SHIT' (of the 'oh shit' i was thinking in these moments) my trusty shackle released the kite into the freedom of my kiteleash.

IMHO riding with a QR of any type is state of the art. but using none is more like not wearing the safety belt in your car: up to you.
riding without leash's more like driving in your car, knowing that the brakes may defunct any moment.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 2:41 am 
Quote:
On 2002-11-04 19:05, Anonymous wrote:
i used to use the flysurfer release system on a peter lynn, back curl, spreader and this was great it never fel out but would releae when needed, but i've now modified all my kites to end in a simple 4mm steel ring. the release line from my wichard shackle is simply velcroed above the steel ring onto each kites depower loop.

basicaly i have a shackle on my harness with a velcro tab that ataches to the depower line, so i always know where it is and every kite is the same, the other good system i've sen is a german one, not solid, that is spreader bar based and has a metal pad that you tap to release.

i think we'll see some new kit later this season, but for now everyone is using the their own system.

i think all kites should come with asteel ring on the end of the depower line and come with a release on this that can be removed so a shackle canbe used it you prefer, then we all have the choice to use identical systems.



Their is always something bad when it comes to ditching a killer kite, Its a part of kitesuefing that needs an answer, I don't have it. I like the Idea of attaching the QR handle to the depower with some sort of weak connection like velcro or a snap or anything that will breakaway. you can spin and the release is right in front of your face. I don't like or maybe do not understand the ring? You need a loop to hook into if your shackle fails or breaks. this is as close as I can come to a solution, it is not good enough, if anthing can kill kiting this is it.
Somebody do something please
kiting rocks,death sucks, all things considered; I'll kite till it kills me,


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 5:50 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 644
Location: www.tbks.net FL
I just want to reinforce my posting. I 100% believe that a QR is an essential part of ANY kite rig! It is shackling in that I am in question of.

I bet you guys can tell us 100's of stories where your QR saved your ass, no doubt. Let's ALL be thankful for QR's. Maybe even the same amount of stories to back up the Shackle. But time will tell as it always has for us in the past.

But shackles I am still very scared of. but bad data Yeh 'dude', I know it's a personal preference, and I know it prevents problems like coming unhooked and not being able to hook back in. BUT, if you are following safe kiteflying guidelines, are you not at that point to fatigued to be flyinga kite that size?

Anyhow, I'm sure theirs more stories where QR's have saved lives than not. BUT...I am just speculating here, but I forsee some more dangers headed your way of you continue to shackle in. It just doesn't seem wise to me to be THAT attached to the kite. WHAT IF!! I mean really, what if you are being drug toward a stone wall, and you release your shackle and it doesn't release...or it snags. Do you then have a backup release like the releaseable spreader bar? If you don't, I'm going to have to bet that you end up hitting that wall, because even if you were to do as I did and just go at the chicken loop with both hands, it WONT come off cuz it's stuck in a stuck shckle.

I don't condem or even judge you guys for using them. I am just trying to question their real safety. Are we doing right by using snap shackle? I personally find them to be as dangerous as they are safe.

Hey Jo MAC. I am currently trying out a new voice recoginiton program that seems to work nice. I can even operate the pc just by voice. Go from website to website and even navigate them. It's still giving me some typo's...about 90% good, but I have yet to finish doing the voice training teaching the pc to fully understand all that I say. If you're interested in checking it out, you can get it for free at...
http://download.com.com/3000-2347-83260 ... ag=lst-0-9

You can tell your pc to do ANYTHING, and even better yet, you can have your pc READ these forums to you instead of you having to read them. EXTRA handy for frequent users of this place.

Johnny

I will require you to pay for it in a month if you like it, but it's MUCH cheaper than Dragon Naturally speaking. You WILL need a good clean sounding mic and take the time to go through the voice recognition training part of it for it to work best....but it's great!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 8:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 2185
Location: Spain/Italy
Thanks John, you's da man.
Jo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 9:51 am 
Hm...

I nowadays always ride shackled in. I even got rid of the loop (yes yes, I'l mount it back, it was not a good idea) and installed a stainless ring at the end of the power/depower rope. The schackle is fixed to the harness. With the stainless ring I just made sure it cannot get stuck to end of the opened schakle (as it did with the loop when I was testing it). Having testing it in my garage under different loads, it always opened. Also, testing it in shallow waters fully powered it opened. I used it three times so far in an emergency (or at least I thought of it that could potencially be a dangerous situation) and it saved my ass. Anyway, what if it would fail?

I'd suggest to always have a second chance to let your self off. In my case, I am using the cut-away knife attached to my floatation vest (http://www.bumpandjump.com/prod/detail. ... t=kitesurf). I trained a little bit to get to it even with my eyes closed and I also tested how it cuts the lines - it works perfectly and instantly.

Currently, I am thinking of the following setup: having one snapschackle on my harness and the other one at the end of the power/depower rope hooked into each other. Even if one would fail, I still have a second chance to open the other (one possibility to explore is also to hook both schackles to the some release handle). Even if both would fail, I still have a cut-away knife. If all three fail, I am having a bad luck - risk, with which we all live anyway while engageing in this sport (though there are more possibilities of driving home from your work while reckless driver crashes into you with his car).

Now finally, I'd like to point out one truth: most of the accidents (what I can read in the reports here and otherplaces on the web) happen while kiters are launching their kites close to the objects downwind and possibly puting them in the zenith on the ground. As we all know (and you guys have also reported it) it is just a split of a second needed to be lofted (or dragged) when for example gust hits -NOTHING will help you to get off the kite before you hit the wall, cars, etc... a few tenth of meters downwind. Nothing. (Sometimes, I even doubt you would be able to even release the bar when not hooked in so quickly!)

JMHO.

Damjan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 4:19 pm 
In summary: Qr multipull times and ways with QR spreader= only as safe as your choice of lanch site i.e. bad site yor still in danger! Importance for sport = primary! Real problem = Dangerious lanch sites. Solution we kiters have to be contientious, probability = fat chance, bottom line we are the problem I consider myself a saftey minded kiter yet i get to the kite site and it is all gone, I see wind and i'm gona kite, I am sick, I have Mustkitemania-noproblemjustholdmedown! we are the problem! Thats the Real Story??? f-it!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 17, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 155
Location: gr
i also use the stainless ring.worked every time.releases faster than my cabrinha chicken loop(that has no QR) BUT be carefull i now use an original tested(with stamps on it etc,)shackle after being in a bad situation when the one boughted from a nautical shop(heavy duty blablabla etc.)broke in three parts after a jump.(thanks god i used the leash)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 4:52 pm 
Quote:
On 2002-11-05 16:42, kpipis wrote:
i also use the stainless ring.worked every time.releases faster than my cabrinha chicken loop(that has no QR) BUT be carefull i now use an original tested(with stamps on it etc,)shackle after being in a bad situation when the one boughted from a nautical shop(heavy duty blablabla etc.)broke in three parts after a jump.(thanks god i used the leash)


In reguard to the ring instead of a loop please refer to anon post above. "there is always somthing" also my post above, whatever flips your bail, maybe you'd like a second chance? maybe not? whatever! party on!


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