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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 7:11 pm 
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On 2002-11-06 18:48, Anonymous wrote:
Can't we all just get along?
Roddney Kiting


yeah,we will, but this is a hot topic, so opinions get heated up.
We are kiters and will always help each other or our sport will die and this is the last thing we want, since for many people it is the nicest thing in life.

The problem is that we can't say: use a leash before you get me in trouble. Some are ignorant and don't see the problem.
If you use a helmet or vest or not, it is everyones own problem,but the leash is not.
So there has to be a solution and we should demand for everyone before the authorities will ban our sport because someone had sincery injuries or evendied because of a runaway kite.
Riding without leash means putting others in danger knowing it and this is not the future of our sport. If somethings breaks it is different, the wasn't your fault,but letting go of the bar it is.

So this topic isn't easy since no-one wants to tell anyone what to do, but if it may affect our health everyone will take precautions and that is e.g. not rescuing someones kite if they didn't use a leash.

I can understand both opinions, but more logical for the future and everyone else is the fact that we all should use a leash.

Toby


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 8:58 pm 
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ok then guys here we go.
log in this time not from work, so my user id is up.

for those who don't log into the bksa site, i'm the guy responsible for hawking flysurfers around the uk beaches on behalf of the importer.


i've personally cut a couple of pigtails off kites myself and rescued countless kites and boards from the deep blue, from people who have been and not been wearing leashes.

i agree with his principle of refusing to launch a kite for someone not wearing a leash, thats the time to do it. but i cant believe he would let someone elses kite drift out to sea, with a $1000 told you so on his face, thats sick. you have to agree.

marine salvage law says 60% of the value of the kit is his if he retrieves it, that's a much better bargaining position to get the guy to wear a leash.

rather than create a society of mistrust and dislke on the beach.

i hope he gets well from the car crash, but imagine if it was more serious and the paramedic was someone who's kite " he had jumped over as it drifted past"....

there's definately a right way to do it, and that's not it. so that's where the flame came from.

no harm meant.
simon


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 9:33 am 
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i agree with his principle of refusing to launch a kite for someone not wearing a leash, thats the time to do it. but i cant believe he would let someone elses kite drift out to sea, with a $1000 told you so on his face, thats sick. you have to agree.


That just depends on the situation, I surely wouldn't do that with a person I have never seen before and rather have a good talk with him.
If its someone who regularyl uses the same spots as me, endangering me and other everytime. I surely wouldn't suppport his opinion that its no problem and someone will eventually catch his kite by doing so myself. Its a little bit like telling a bankrobber his mask doesn't fit perfectly.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 10:56 am 
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Hi all!

This has been very interesting topic and I'm sure that the discussion will continue on beaches, frozen water areas, snowy fields and on mountains.

I want to add one rather obvious comment about rescuing a runaway kite. If the kite is going out to sea or towards forest, why bother? It is not your "fault". But it is still risky situation, because the loose kite can make harm to somebody (or something).

My opinion is that, all people on the beach should do all possible things to prevent accidents. So if it is possible for you to prevent an accident happen and it means that you have to try to catch a loose kite, then DO IT. There is not an excuse for that IMHO.

After that you can tell your opinion about the importance of leahes to the owner of the kite.

BTW I hope you all have checked your insuranses that they will cover all the situations you can "imagine".

I wish happy kiting to everybody. Use your common sense and respect others. Peace!

VESKU


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 11:10 am 
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Some food for thought on many of the points raised so far.

Refusing to land a leashless riders kite. - Whats he going to do then, chances are he'll have to do a risky no leash solo landing. If its any empty beach with plenty of space maybe not a bad idea, maybe even the guys kite will blow into the rocks and get damaged which will make him think twice next time about riding leashless. But if its a crowded spot chances are he will damage a third party not just his kite, how clear would your own conscience be after that.

Not launching a leashless kite. Similar to above, on an empty beach the guy may struggle and realise its better to wear a leash in future, or he might try a solo launch and take out a family on a busy beach again its your conscience in question.

Note- On both the above my personal views are that if you cant solo launch and land your kite in any conditions you should not be out in the first place so in that respect refusing a launch would have little real impact.

Not rescueing an unleashed kite/kiter - There's an unwritten rule of the sea as far as I'm concerned, if someone needs assistance you give it. It doesn't matter how they ended up in that situation you help if you can. Now I can see Johnny's point of view if there are many riders without leashes who go out with the thought that, 'Hey it's ok not to wear a leash cos if I drop my kite Johnny and his boat will go get it for me'. Maybe the first time but if there are lots of you doing it all the time and he's using up his fuel and you still do not get the message about using a leash then it's a fair call (if the rider or others or not endangered) to refuse to go get the kite. While the unleashed rider is walking a couple of miles down the coast to retrieve his gear he might have time to reconsider riding leashless in future.

cutting lines, violent threats etc. - If you do have a small number of very irresponsible riders causing a problem for all then some action maybe needed, but it should never require the cutting of lines/violence. in such cases you need to use social pressure to get the message across, if this guy gets shunned by everyone else and the local repair guy and retailer wont help him out etc etc he should come around or find another spot to ride at least. In other words it needs to be the whole local kite community working together to keep things safe.

Going back to the original thread. Most newbies I see these days are very sfety concious and wear helmets, impact vests and use leashes, it seems to me its not until they start to think they are a good rider that they start to ride leashless. So imho if we can change the attitude at the top level the manufacturers will improve thier safety systems (to give thier team riders a better advantage and therefore get better contest results and more publicity) which will mean better safety for all and move away from this bullshit that if you are a good rider you dont need a leash cos it gets in the way.

If the pro's want to be the puppets of the marketing machine and put their lives on the line for a particular brand they are very foolish. Most of the big companies dont give a monkey about their riders all they are interested in is getting the contest results and the publicity, if a rider gets hurt or killed it's a bummer for sure but there's plenty of other young hotties out there and it's not as if another sponsor can use the dead/crippled pro anyway. Riders are expendable.

#Just like drink driving the only way to stamp out irresposible/leashless kiting is to make it socially unacceptable.

One other thing, I do fully admit there are certain places/conditions when it is ok to ride leashles but this would not be the case for the vast majority of riders. You can never assume anything when it comes to mother nature, be prepared for any eventuality.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 11:13 am 
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Hi Vesku,
I dunno, I can understand Johnny's point of view. If you're on the beach or in shallow water without your kite or board then catching a runnaway kite is doggy at best. If you have a boat to chase it and match its speed ok, but if you're out kiting in strong wind then maybe trying to catch a runnaway kite could get you into some pretty nasty situations.
What are you gonna do, jump on it, try and grab it as you kite past and get knocked into the water in the first gust, what happens to your kite + board, what are the chances of getting wrapped in flying lines or screwing your gear up so bad you have to be rescued?
Personally I would help a stranded kiter in trouble every time by body dragging him in, or bringing his board back, no prob about that, but I don't feel ready to handle two kites yet especially in strong wind, and especially if one is loose, goin nuts and probably with its lines all screwed up and no safe way of depowering it fast (leash, although I supose cutting both lines on one side is best), has anyone done this, what's the best way of doing it safely?
Jo

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Jo Macdonald on 2002-11-07 11:18 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 12:51 pm 
ahah.

is this the same for foils as well as lei's as all foils tend to go soft and become manageable to catch after a few minutes.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:23 pm 
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Hi Jo!

Good point of views. I just wanted to point out that we should do all to prevent accidents on beaches or in water. I don't want anybody risk their lifes in "rescue operations" so we should use a common sense in those situations.

I wanted to say that you can't be totally ignorant for the kites without leashes.

Like Gaffer said, if somebody is in danger and has MAYDAY on the sea, EVERYBODY has to do all to help him. But I think we all understand this. It was not the case in original topic. Johnny's opinions were little bit extreme, but I understood his point. Peace.

Here in Finland we have rather extreme conditions. Right now there is already snow and the Sea is still open. Water is very cold so if something happens the risk of hypothermia is very high. You could loose everything in minutes. So you have to take care of your fellow kiters.

Take care,

VESKU


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:39 pm 
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Yeah, I would definately help the kiter, kite too if it had got where it was goin and I wasn't on the water, but I think grabbing a runnaway traction kite is very doggy even at the best of times, which is definanetly not when you've got another in your hands, or is it really not as complicated as all that?
Jo

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Jo Macdonald on 2002-11-07 14:45 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 3:00 pm 
yeh i'll take some of my bite back, i've only ever rescues foils in the water, and both on the beach.


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