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Flysurfer Warrior - Exploding?

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Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:44 pm

On 2003-01-03 17:04, Anonymous wrote:
Going cruising for long distances with a ram air is asking for trouble. In complete wind dropouts or catastrophic gear failure, NO ram air will stay floating on the ocean for more than an hour before it becomes hopelessly water-logged. If you are miles from shore, your best chance is with an inflatable; at least you can use it as a floatation device or grab the tips and "sail" in. It's BS to say a ram is better on cruises because it will stay up longer than an inflatable in wind drop outs - this is definitely not the case for 2003 inflatables.
Right on, my very words too - you can not seriously say that RAM airs are safer for long distance ?
(they might be better regarding pure speed, but this is another topic)

I think this is the point that is really obvious - and why many RAM kiters often kite near the coast, and not in heavy surf as much as others.
And leaks in a LEI ?
It happens - but very rare (and some have even been kiting for years without one single leak) - and it don't happen when out on the water, thats for sure.
Only if you treat if bad on land by hitting something sharp or pointy.
This will happen for some of course - but it is not a safety issue IMO.

This was my main reason for changing - having seen foils being down for 15 min. for some reason (and tried it myself), and then not being able to get up again - but you have to swim ashore, or get help from outside if the wind is sideshore (tried that once - a windsurfer came by, and tried to help relaunch the foil - but to no use, as it was soaked from the inside at that time.

It took hours to get ashore, even with help from other windsurfers, just because I was unlucky to get too much water inside at a crash.

This will never happen with LEI's, not even in waves...
In huge waves LEI's might break though - but again, this is another talk.

The thing is, that you know for sure, that it will not happen with LEI's, unless you have a material failure.
And this happens so rare - that you can easily live with that.
And even in this case - you can, as mentioned, drag yourself ashore by the kitetips.
But going out and fearing that your kite might take in water - or tangle - so you can't relaunch any more, and return back in - is a nightmare for many kiters !
Not all of course, as some are kiting nearer the coast than others.

And if the wind drops out - well, even if it completely drops out so all kites go down - you just sit down and wait for it to come up again so you can relaunch your LEI.

This is great, that you can feel so sure and safe and relaxed - no stress when this happens.

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Postby KiteGlider » Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:44 pm

Excellent points Peter and Anon,

Not wise to sail miles offshore.
I just like to cruise for a distance along the coast within comfortable swimming distance.

And yes, I think a fast turning LEI is ideal for wave surfing.

good advise, thanks.........

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Postby Jason » Fri Jan 03, 2003 11:06 pm

Their has been some fantastic advice all through this topic. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. Had I have known about bridle weakenesses "built in" to the kites and possible weight limitiations to the kites prior to making my decision to use foils, perhaps my decision would have been different.

They( warriors) have their advantages, easy to self launch, quick to get off the water, large wind range, great for surf. However in my opinion the disadvanatages far outweight the advantages.

I originally purchased the warriors with the perception that I would have the kites for 2 - 3 years due to the superior durability, but this has proven not to be the case.

I have taken great care to ensure my bridle lines where in top condition. But in the absence of any physical signs of wear and tear, their is little you can do.

I started on LEI's and may end up back on them!



Postby Guest » Fri Jan 03, 2003 11:59 pm

You are pulling things out of proportion here. Flysurfer stands for durability and all their materials are of the highest quality, no cutting corners here. These kites can have 3 years of normal use under their belts without problems.

Extreme cases/accidents can always happen with every kite LEI or FOIL!


Postby Guest » Sat Jan 04, 2003 12:48 am

Jason listed the perceived advantages of ram airs:
1] easy to self launch
-Yeh, maybe, but any intermediate or above inflatable rider finds self launching their LEI a cinch. Self-launching a ram is a lot more dangerous a lot more often - having to launch the ram straight downwind in the middle of the power zone on a 25 knot day is asking for trouble.

2] Quick to get off the water
- Yeh, maybe. But once again, intermediate inflatable kiters rarely have problems relaunching. After quarter an hour in the water, I'd back an inflatable to relaunch better and more easily than a ram anyway.

3] Large wind range
- The new season inflatable have a larger wind range than any ram

4] Great for surf
- Hey what??? In what possible way is a ram better than an inflatable in the surf????? A wave landing on a kite is not a good thing, regardless of kite - but in this scenario an inlfatable is more likely to survive and is more likely to relaunch - one wave on a ram can hopelessly waterlog it or twist the bridle. Inflatables turn faster and are therefore better for wave riding. In catastrophic gear failure, you can hold onto the leading edge of an inflatable and if you're lucky, you might make back through the shorebreak with your kite intact. There is no way you can do this with a ram.


Postby Guest » Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:05 am

i don't think this was meant to be yet another foil vs. inflatable discussion. Both types can rip apart under the wrong circumstances, infact, before this discussion I had ONLY heard about LEIs exploding in midair. But that is probably just because most people are still on LEIs...


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Postby sq225917 » Sat Jan 04, 2003 4:58 pm

to end the topic, jason unfortunately you are way over the limits of margin of safety for the kites, and you want to get in touch with armin at flysurfer directly and discuss the availability of thicker stronger linesets as supplied with the psychos, upgraded by 40% on all main lines and connections.

working for the uk distributor i've seen every popped flysurfer in the uk and 90% had turned inside out due to bad flying first.

a number did pop through due to critical failure chaining, my 9m psycho was one of these, but due to the line upgrades it was only the safety links that snapped.


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Postby Jason » Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:04 pm

Once again thank you to everyone for you feedback, in particular the constructive posts that have enabled me to gain more knowledge on this issue.

Their is no doubt that heavier people (over 100 kgs) place far more stress and pressure on their equipment than the averge 75-80 kg person.

Overall the flysurfer kites are exceptional in most characterisitcs, and when I moved from my North Rhino Quiver, I felt it was a significant step up for me.

For heavier users, a "Heavy Duty" bridle option for the Warriors would be a great idea. I certainly would have taken it up if this option would have been available.

Once again, thank to everyone of your posts and inparticular for keeping this post away from being a LEI V's Foil post or a brand bash.


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Postby MBENGEL » Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:27 pm

Let's face it! We all love kiteing! I've had bad experiences on my favorite kites. Try again another day and be glad that there is all kite's of different kite's to keep the market wide open. I'd like to have LEI's and FOIL's for different situation's, condition's. I blew out my wrist(lol) flying overpowered 3day's in a row with a 12m - 2 line kite. I could say that 2 line kites suck, where-as other people will swear their the best for their situation. It took a week to heal and I learned my limitation's with that kite. No 3 day marathon's. I also figured out a better technique for rideing and turning the kite that's easier on me.

Jason, Let us know how it turn's out with your kites. That's a bummer. I would agree that most of the newer kites are being built better than last years. Sound's like Flysurfer should be able to help you out. Ride on!

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Postby gaffer » Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:42 am

just to dispel the myth that some people seem to believe....


It is very easy (sometimes easier) to launch from the side of the window, I have done this with blades, arcs and flysurfers.

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