did anyone say already that the low efficiency and more area in LEIs is exactly what their advantage is made of?
why? how come? what do you mean?
The point is - their form.
it doesnt matter that you dont need to be very smart to ride a Tube.
That blades can self launch, depower nice, dont blow in the surf and promise a higher social status still the major drawback of the foils stays the same - they are........................................................................................................................ no archs

I'm amazed to see that the debate is still going on with a lot of completely false arguments.
as anon was suggesting, here is what's going on on our beach:
-there are only two guys on the water every days, while all the others are waiting on the beach.
-there are only two guys who almost never swim back as their kite relaunch every times
-when it's time to get the kites ready, there are two guys who are ready in less then 5 minutes, while it takes the others more then 15
those two guys are flying flysurfer.de

Loeuftok are you from Portugal???? This is what happens where I kite just check the picks in my web page. Eheheh
Here r some of the best.




This was all taken the same day. Check my web for the remaining photos. On my local spot almost everybody was using lei now after we started kitesurfing there and because of the way we are going they want to test flysurfer and admit that we excel in a lot of situations. They haven't seen us on the psycho yet. But as soon as the good kite day’s start and I’m out there with the psycho things will change.
Ps.- the green kite is a rhino 2- 18 and we couldn't ride it and the flysurfer as going upwind.
In strong winds I’m jumping as high as everybody in my spot with my warriors, I started kitesurfing in September 2002; all the others have already 1 year of kitesurfing.

Flysurfer rocks and if you test the psycho you'll never go back to lei.


_________________
http://www.x-klam.com


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: taabsr on 2003-01-13 02:47 ]</font>

To all the foil guys, let's just close this thread, the guy is obviously just trying to get us pissed and has no depth in his arguments. Do not lead him on, don't respond to his posts, i don't have to justify my choice to anyone, i know i love my psycho and just because he says it sucks isn't going to change that. What makes me sad, is new readers or impressionable people who will actually think what he is saying is true, and not give the foils a chance, too bad for them, it is their loss.

As a note, i was out in Progreso yucatan, a really high wind area where the kiters kite very often, and are very good. On the same day, i was jumping twice as high with my psycho than they were. They were on X2's, 2002 cabrinhas, 2003 slinghsot gto's, boards included cabrinha pranksters, spoilers, wavetrays, litewave pitbulls and 169's. This was not my calculation, this is what the non kiters on the beach told me after i got out of the water. Same thing happened a few days later in Puerto Morelos with Joseph, he was the only guy jumping almost as high as me, he was using a 2002 12 meter fuel. he then tried my psycho and loved it, he now has a 15.5 psycho.

Andres Santacruz

taabsr,
from thailand actually. I like these pics

Andres,
you are right this guys is too close minded. to waste anymore time with him is probably useless.
btw, I 'm really waiting for good winds to try my new north toro 6

"Why none of the top 50 use Ram Airs?"

Since to some here it is blatantly obvious that foils are just as good as tubes for competitions, there must be an industry conspiracy keeping the foil riders out of the rankings. No?

I fly LEI's and ram airs. I sometimes even listen to clasical music after listening to country music. Living on the edge baby. The G and F arcs far outpoint any LEI and easily jump as high and have superior hang time with more stability. That was probably like breaking a banjo over some of your heads. Sorry. Reality can play new music in your ears. The Hang time contest was won by Aaron Jarmon and Lachlan in open and masters respectively in a recent Aus contest including pro tour Hi. team guys. Aaron and Lach are amateurs. Look at the new product section of reviews in the UK kite mag. Says Stephan Cook was jumping TWICE as high as all the local pros plus much more hang time with super soft landings on G arcs. Stephan doesn't go around to all the contests. He works for the manufacturer of arcs and works with dealers, does mods, sews and tests kites when he is lucky. An amateur who rips with a full time job. I love my Gastras and old Fone in sizes in 15 plus for waves. My proto G 12 wave arc is the best wave kite I have ever used by far. No inflato can compare in stability and gust absorption in my experience compared to an arc. I was out by myself again for two hours today before the wind really came up as no large tube could keep flying through the super light lulls without Hydenberging. My two year old 1410 is much lighter (and rediculously smaller) than an equal powered inflato. Very simple. When there is solid, light wind (almost mutually exclusive) the largest turny inflatos are a blast. It just doesn't happen all that often and is only more fun in good waves in that super light wind and if you like that particular wave riding style. Lots of iff's. The guy who won the San Fransisco kite contest on F arcs last summer was imediately picked up and sponsored by "Cabrinha?" I think it was. PL doesn't pay anything for a pro team. They don't give out free kites to a bunch of guys or pay the big bucks. Viegler ops doesn't have to. Good kites sell themselves by word of mouth, not hype. PL has a huge part of the world market without perpetual adds, video promotion and team sponsored trips. Wish they would do some good advertising and promotion though. The Flysurfer is getting a lot of talk despite negative and close minded detractors who have probably never flown it. Probably something to the new ones. Had one of the original Mast airs. Bugger pulled like a truck and was more powerful than the leis of the time. Keep an open mind and don't buy into hype. Talk to someone who can kite and actually flies a particular kite prior to judgeing. It takes a while to learn to fly a new type of kite. You have to give it quite a few days. If you don't compete, a super high AR, unstable lei or radical foil is nothing but ego beach talking rights. The 2003s have gotten much better. Still: Don't drive the Ferrari unless you know where the gas pedal is and have been to drivers school. Face it, you would be better off with the turbo Volvo Station wagon. The ferrari may get you laid by some shallow bimbo but the impractical kite will just kick your sorry ass. Sure you have all seen the wanna be talking heads just like the kooks who couldn't surf but had the big name surfboards on the beach. Got to love it. Always more money and ego than brains in that group. They will bow to any idols product, the self professed coolest guys are bending over for. Anything to be part of the cool majority in fashion. Another group of Barny Sheep. If only one type of kite worked then there would be no other. The market is shaped by money not reality. Look at cars, underwear, etc. You don't even need underwear. Yeah, ended that well. Not!! You know how many people drive new HumVees in LA? They will never go in the dirt. Gas guzlers with a single driver to look cool and screw the environment. Same mind set. People will think I look cool if I am a stupid as them and buy the same stuff. Life is too short to be serious. Crap into the huge inflato pump of the biggest,inconsiderate and self serving nice person on the beach and screw the top back on. Always good for a laugh. Just kidding. Not nice thing to do..but..Tell me how it goes if it accidentally happens and he starts pumping it. Now there is a crappy leading edge inlatable. May have to add water so it blows right out of the end. Snicker, snicker. HAve Fun and sorry for the last. Five hours on the water today having a blast on a kite which all these people keep telling me shouldn't work, made me a bit wacko. Traig

the answer to the original question.... How many foils in the top 50? (for those who cant remember) is WHO CARES.

A kite does not have to make it into the top 50 before it works well and gives much fun. Competion results are not everything. I would guess that 99% of all the LEI's SOLD never get used in a contest (SOLD does not include the freebies given to sponsored riders). If you get too hung up about contest results then you run the very real risk of this sport going down the tubes the way windsurfing did, gear will become so specialised that gone will be the days that your average joe public can get into the sport and the grass roots of the sport will suffer at the hands of the high profile media circus excuses for contests. Manufacturers are not in this business to give away free kites to the pro's they are in it to sell kites to the average guy. By obessing about the high profile end of the sport and neglecting the other end they are making a noose for their own necks. The short term gains are overshadowing the long term future!

It may well be that it's only the ram airs that have the hope of saving this sport, the majority of LEI manufacturers are just on the rebound windsurf sail makers obsessed with contest results and high publicity pro teams. The ram air companies are from a different background (mainly power kite and paraglider companies) that is why they do not have this same obsession with contest results, they build thier products for the average guy to use, for the guy that just want to go out and have some fun at the weekend. Call it the Bently approach rather than the Ferrari Formula 1 if you like.

There does not have to be a winner or a loser in the foil vrs LEI war, hell there doesn't even need to be a war. That is what all this contest crap does to people it fry's their brains and they lose touch with the important things in life. This sport should be all about going out and sharing some wind with your mates, it does'nt matter what kite you ride or who goes biggest.

Most of the time all the hype and banter makes me smile or even laugh but this thread has actually mad me quite sad and even worried for the future of this (potentially) wonderful sport.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: gaffer on 2003-01-13 10:08 ]</font>

Gaffer, you are suggesting that blades is morally better. C`mon.

In reply to gaffer re competition results.

It is true that a kite does not have to make it into the top 50 for it to work well and competition results are not everything.

Nevertheless, kitesurfing is unique. Unlike windsurfing where the elite riders will do stuff (eg forward loops) that your average weekend sailor can only dream of, most weekend kitesurfers can do truncated versions of EVERYTHING a pro can do. eg Jumps, rotations, wave riding etc. The jumps may not be as high, the rotations not as numerous, and board off tricks non-existent, but nevertheless, weekend riders still need to be able to optimise these facets of their riding: Jumping, hang-time, speed of the kite thru the air, and hassle-free setup and use.

Joe Public therefore demands equipment which the pros use.

Pros choose inflatables because they give superior results in all the facets I've outlined.

It is wrong to suggest ram companies do not have an obsession with contest results - they are obsessed, they just haven't got the product which pros need to get what they need in comps: Speed, height, control, and hang time.

Inflatables give the Bently approach (eg Naish Aero) AND the Ferrari Formula 1 approach (eg X2 or Rhino2). Foils invariably give the beaten up 1972 Chrysler approach.