Flat vs Big Belly Profile Kites

[Guest]

Those are really good observations on the differences between those two kites. Those are the differences that make up the reasons companies chose one design philosophy over the other. Both design philosophies have their advantages and disadvantages. You have done a good job of figuring this out.

In 2003 these differences are becoming less between the leading kite designers. The 2003 Pro Lift and Lift have better lower end power. The 2003 Rhino2 has more top end than the 2002 Rhino1. They are still far apart, but getting closer. I personally believe the X3 will have more grunt than the X2. I heard one thing Don Montague would have liked better on his X2, would have been more hang time. Maybe it will be achieved with the X3 through better grunt, or maybe better L/D, or both. Just my guess!

I have not flown the 2003 Airush, but my friends with them, are showing a lot more low end power than last year.

I believe your opinion of jumping height is based on your familiarity with flat kites. With flat kites, it’s easy to whip the kite hard to jump. With a gruntier kite (when very powered), the jumping technique shifts away from kite whipping and towards hard line loading and release. Both kites will get you equally high.

Dwight

[BLOWN AWAY]

Luv my big belly 20m AERO for light winds... agreed, hard on the steering but once powered that doesn't really become a problem. But in the stronger stuff I like a kite with range. The X2 has great range but still sines fast enough to give decent low end...

Bar pressure isn't a bad thing... once you get into redicial complex menouvres you want a kite that has great hangtime but you can still feel where it is... that way it's less likely to do a powerdive and waste ya.

The bottom line is that you shouldn't have to sine the kite much at all... or you ain't powered enough.

My AERO 20 has great bar pressure so you never boff a move but the hangtime is left wanting a bit due to the lower AR but still goos enough to get triple frontspins in 15 knots..

Big belly for light winds, flat belly for the stronger stuff.. that way the sizes don't vary much.. meaning you don't get too slow or too fast a kite...

BLOWN AWAY

[Dwight]

I think, the future will be full belly'ed kites in the big sizes, so they turn better because they are smaller in area for the same lift.
And in the smaller and medium sizes, we will see flatter and very fast flying kites.

That would be the logical assumption, but in fact, it's the opposite. I've been lucky enough to have access to information that tells me about the foils of the kites I get to test. Thin profiles work best in big kites. The older big kites were thick, that's why they were slow dogs that didn't jump well. You can throw away grunt in big kites to some extent. You need kite speed in light wind to get jumping performance. In high wind you throw away kite speed to get control and safety. A thicker profile high wind kite is what people like. It's hard for the us to see the shape differences, but that is what is happening in kite design.

[bear]

hey fatboy stirring the put wre we?
perhaps the only way to settle this is for me to duck out with your lifts for a couple of sessions? we should line our respective bags up on the beach at torquay and just fly em all till our hands bleed and we have solid results.....sound like a deal?
on another note - could you even fly a lift in the conditions i fly my 18 r2 in? or your 20 r2? comfort and confidence can play a role in your kiting as well remember. I am looking forward to seeing and x3 in the air though.

[Peter_Frank]

On 2003-01-18 14:15, Dwight wrote:

I think, the future will be full belly'ed kites in the big sizes, so they turn better because they are smaller in area for the same lift.
And in the smaller and medium sizes, we will see flatter and very fast flying kites.

That would be the logical assumption, but in fact, it's the opposite. I've been lucky enough to have access to information that tells me about the foils of the kites I get to test. Thin profiles work best in big kites. The older big kites were thick, that's why they were slow dogs that didn't jump well. You can throw away grunt in big kites to some extent. You need kite speed in light wind to get jumping performance. In high wind you throw away kite speed to get control and safety. A thicker profile high wind kite is what people like. It's hard for the us to see the shape differences, but that is what is happening in kite design.

I get the point.
But there is huge difference in a thick leading edge, (front bladder and curve on the first part of the struts) - and a thick profile.

What I think work best, is a thin leading edge, AND a curved profile (camber), for the big kites.

North is one of these types, somewhat - and this works well for the 16 and 18 IMO.
It will be on expense of depower range, which will always be bigger on flatter profiles.
The thick front with curved struts at the front - like the Naish ARX 15.5, fly too slow to perform, yes (anyone who has used this kite will know).

But if you have a quite thin profile, with much camber - then you can get a fairly fast kite, with huge low end grunt.

But on expense of windrange of course.

When I talk about "small" kites, I mean kites under 14m2 - which I think is a small kite.

Kites under 9-10m2 are for really windy conditions, and here the design is aimed at making the kites controllable and feel right, more than anything else, just like you say.

But it seems that the companies are going in very different directions right now - some want the fast high end profiles, and others want low end grunt.
Every brand has its own goal here - and they are definitely not the same, nor the distribution throughout the kite size range.

If you take the Airblast - you have a really fast kite (flat profile), but it does not have low end power in the big sizes for planing and jumping.
But you can't beat the windrange...

I think we agree about the big ones - we have just seen it from opposite starting points (me from too fast/flat kites, you from grunty slower kites), which will confuse somewhat.

Which brand(s) are you talking about Dwight ?

[Dwight]

[quote]
On 2003-01-18 17:23, Peter_Frank wrote:
[quote]

Peter, put your e-mail address in your profile so we can talk in private.

I don't think we get spam from this forum. It comes from Yahoo, which I have quit.

[Guest]

My guess is that the diameter of the leading edge bladder is dictated by the foil profile. You can't have a large leading edge with a shallow profile.
And one more thing that is not being looked at is angle of attack that the foile profile can opperate in. This must play a big part in the performance of the kites ability to handle gusts, stability of the pitch of the foil, response to sheeting and amout of sheeting that can be obatined. Full profile kites should be able to operate at greater angles of attack than a shallow profiles. Which means a high wind kite would be better with a fuller profile because it's operating at greater air speeds where the kite will be subjected to extreme gust.
Alex