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Foil future (paraglide?)

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Rv
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Postby Rv » Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:22 pm

So where do you see the future of foil kitesurfing kites?

I see them blending with paragliding technology so that you can use them for water surface traction, or whip them up and use them to fly, I mean really fly, paraglider style, unlimited hang time.

Maybe this is already happening. Flysurfer's new vent system looks interesting, when the vents are open, the kite just cruises, pull them closed and boom! Maybe :razz:

It seems to me to be just a matter of being able to dump the power when it's not wanted and then have it very controllable once you bring it back in. Not easy, but then this is a very new sport, and the equipment is evolving rapidly.

What do you guys with paraglider experience think? Could this happen?

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Postby gaffer » Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:49 pm

dont think so, even paragliders need lift to make prolonged flight. so unless you intend kitesurfing towards a cliff boosting a big one and trying to catch an uplift (very dangerous if it goes pear shaped) then the only other source of lift I could imagine that is available is the lift used by albatrosses when gliding infront of ocean swells. But most of this lift is dependant on ground effect which is not possible with a kite.

Maybe the option of paragliding down to the water then kitesurfing away is realistic but that would involve paragliding backwards on the end of long lines which again does not sound like a very safe option to me.

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Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:00 pm

I don't get the point ?

There IS no difference in a foil, and a paraglider (except for performance/trim, and small details).

Neither has unlimited hangtime without lift, and both has unlimited hangtime if there is sufficient lift !

And LEI's could be used to have unlimited hangtime too, if there was lift.

I've tried the last one, somewhat, by doing an airjibe jump close to a ridge where we used to hangglide.
Wind was sideshore, but a little bit onshore - and when I was at the apex of the jump, I just sat there for a really long time, before finally descending down again.
My friend was just packing down at the shore, and he said he had never seen anything like it (in kitesurfing that is).

It was amazing, and fun !

I was aware about the ridge effect (thats why I jumped so close to the ridge - jumps were higher and longer), and it was relatively safe, because the wind was very sideshore.
But a thrill to get that single "hang steady in one spot" experience !

In more onshore winds you should NEVER jump close to the shore, if the shore has even small elevations - as you might be lifted and drift very long.
We have had serious accidents (luckily without injury) this way - one who has been lifted over a house in one case, when a squall hit, and landed miracoulous on the other side of everything, in a garden - with his heart pumping !

Scary - and this was a very small ridge a looong way from the house.

Be careful !

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Postby ccat » Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:17 pm

give the LEI another layer, make it big enough perhaps 20m2 effective surface, put some flaps in it, attach bridle for safety and see what happens.
I wont be there to watch :grin:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ccat on 2003-01-21 15:22 ]</font>

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Postby RickI » Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:24 pm

Paragliding

Mutlitple point, high strength harness
Reserve parachute(s)
A canopy that is hard to rip under normal loading
Lifting surface can be readily flaired to facilitate landing
Multiple high strength lines
Relatively uncommon equipment failures, e.g. line breakages, canopy tears, harness breakage, etc.
A long period of evolution of safety gear and flight practices
Water impacts can be hazardous

Kiteboarding

You have a hook, that can come off easily and even bend or break
A control bar that can break
A harness line that breaks not uncommonly
Four kite lines that break not uncommonly
A gliding surface that can readily tear, catastrophically particularly under excessive loading caused by extended flight off the surface and particularly by towing.
Gear breakage is relatively common.
ANY of the above failures at alititude would likely result in out of control descent and high speed impact.
Probably flight altitudes too low for deployment of reserve parachutes.
Water impacts are normally fine, land impacts particularly hazardous
Can't readily flair the lifting surface

There are simularities between paragliding and kiteboarding. There are also serious differences that will likely cause injury to those trying to merge the two activities without serious innovation and gear development over time. Kiteboarding gear currently is not strong or reliable enough to be used in extended flights at altitude. It is possible to do it, the risks with current equipment and techniques make it highly hazardous. More development in gear and technqiues is needed and having a redundant canopy that can be deployed at low altitude may not come about any time soon.

Rick Iossi

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Postby Maris » Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:53 pm

Let's Kite-Surfing and jumping and
not Kite-Gliding and falling.
Fun is jumping up and not falling down.

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Rv
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Postby Rv » Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:55 pm

But that's what every kite(surf) company is trying to achive: bigger jumps/longer hangtime.

But I see what you are saying, kitesurfing equipment isn't built for altitude, and to be honest, that wasn't what I was thinking of.

I was more thinking of boosting up, then having enough float to stay there for as long as you like. This is where I see the future of foil kites.

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Postby KiteGlider » Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:55 pm

On 2003-01-21 15:55, Rv wrote:
I was more thinking of boosting up, then having enough float to stay there for as long as you like. This is where I see the future of foil kites.

My longest sailplane flight was 7hrs, after being towed to 1200 ft AGL and released.

Parafoils and hang-gliders can stay up indefintly on a good ridge.

Foils are soft versions of sailplane wings except that the stall speed is so much lower, 5-7kts?

Rick pretty much covered it all on the equipment requirements.
If you like gliding with a parafoil just get a real one designed for flying! :smile:
(flying as in piloting with pilot's controls.)

Cagey


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KiteGlider on 2003-01-21 17:49 ]</font>

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Postby Guest » Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:12 am

i want bigger airs and lesser hangtime if you see what i mean, but maybe that means going down TO HARD...

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Postby KiteGlider » Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:30 am

Maybe trim for a little extra power setting only when you go to full power, so both TE tips turn in.

So at the top of the jump, pull full power, reducing the foward speed, then descend more like a parachute.

Get some other opinions of course, don't want to steer you wrong, pun intended. :smile:

KG


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