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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:54 pm 
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Rick. Was this recent and is the guy ok? Who was it ?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Royce on 2003-01-22 22:55 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:58 pm 
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so conclusion would be nobody really had any trouble with the wichard shackle? even if it's pictured in the original post?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:08 pm 
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Thanks Rick. You're doing a fine job.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:09 pm 
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Royce,

I am still awaiting further information but to date I have been told that it was a rider on holiday from Switzerland in the Caribbean. I hope he is doing well.

As to the Wichard, Tylaska shackles, they seem to release more reliably than the less costly, side release shackles. In fact they may even release accidentally prompting Trang's (Traig's?) suggestion and why a lot of riders like to have a fixed line on their control bars to help manage things in the case of a release.

Is it catagorically certain that there have been no failures with Wichards and Tylaskas or that use of a contact ring is unnecessary, no, not from reports received to date. From what I have heard though the individual rider experience with reliable performance is substantially better with the Wichards and Tylaskas. If you choose to use a shackle as opposed to a pin Quick Release, there are a fair quantity of reports that you would do better with properly rigged, maintained and tested Wichards or Tylaska snap shackles than with the less costly side release shackles.

Wolfgang, thanks for translating and summarizing the article in the German Kiteboarding magazine. I tried and failed to upload a legible scanned version of the article that was emailed to me.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-22 23:24 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:23 am 
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In the interests of safety (yours & others) please read all the way through this unfortunately rather long post. There are a lot of factors.

- Apparently simple metal-to-metal does NOT guarantee release after deployment, even with a tip pivot. A local rider reported to me that when he switched from a traditional snap shackle (side-pivot, pin-release) to a Wichard 2673 (tip-pivot line-release) without changing his ring (which worked fine with the old shackle), it snagged at least twice. I've also heard that the Wichard TRIGGER-release tip-pivot (2655 & 2657) will catch on at least some (if not all) rings, so it's not a viable option as a cheaper alternative to a Tylaska trigger-release.
- With side-pivot shackles* a metal ring is MANDATORY, & it must be of sufficiently large diameter AND cross-section in order to release reliably. It seems that even though a Wichard 2673 will release reliably from a plain line loop (without a plastic sleeve) of ANY size (large or small loop in large or small line), it also has similar ring requirements IF you choose to use a ring (I do NOT use a ring with mine). In other words, with a Wichard 2673 tip-pivot line-release, a ring is not only unnecessary, it can be detrimental. TEST your setup under high load (4 x rider weight**), light load, medium load, & try to MAKE it stick. If you can make it stick, Murphy's Law dictates that it WILL stick when you least want it to.

*Side-pivots must also have WELDED rings on their release pin, & must be tested for the rider's physical strength to release under high load (often up to 4 times rider weight).

**If any of you think there isn't that much load, let me know, & I'll post proof.

To connect a ring to a sewn trim loop, you can carefully cut off the plastic coating, & then lark's head the remaining line loop through the ring. Alternatively you can lark's head the loop through the closed end of the shackle, & then "snap" it directly to your spreader hook, just make sure the pivoting arm of the shackle swings OUT, so it can't catch on the other side of the hook (I'll try to post a photo).

A "spreader" inside the trim loop may not keep the loop open sufficiently under the very high loads we can encounter (4 x rider weight).

Ring breakage is an issue. A local rider has broken a ring rated at 2028lb (922kg) TWICE. It was being used as part of a sliding ring leash system, but the load is the same at the bottom end of the trim loop. I'm now recommending the 4564lb (2075kg) rings, although even larger ones may be required for your snap shackle. My sources report that unwelded (forged) rings are no more reliable than welded.

It's been reported that the new pin-release systems can require more than the rider's strength to release under high load. The new Ocean Rodeo system looks very interesting, although it's been reported that they can release TOO easily (possibly pre-production models, which have now been improved), which is of course much better than the opposite!

Re-attachment after deployment can generally be accomplished BEFORE relaunching the kite (much like initial attachment on land, before launching).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:50 am 
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If you don't want to get rid of your Chicken loop you can use a halyard shackle between it and the snap shackle. They are strength tested (unlike many rings) and you can take it with you from kite to kite without the need for a screwdriver or pliers.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:04 am 
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Quote:
On 2003-01-23 01:50, kitesuffer wrote:
...you can use a halyard shackle between it (trim loop) and the snap shackle.


Yes, but either still use an additional ring between the halyard shackle & snap shackle, or make sure that the snap shackle will release from the halyard shackle even if it spins itself fully or partially around (try every possible orientation). In other words, the cross-sectional and bend radii of every part of the halyard shackle must be sufficient to allow release from the snap shackle.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:34 am 
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Mel asked me to upload two images from his files on the kitesurf forum at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/ ... s%20Stuff/

He has done a lot of experimentation and innovation over the years and has routinely shared the ideas with the rest of us. In the following photos he presents an approach for a metal to metal connection without the use of a ring that he describes in his post above. The harness hook provides the metal contact but apparently it needs to be attached correctly to facilitate proper release.

<!-- BBCode Start --><IMG SRC="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQDeAngXiLQQBPmyaS6SD36y2K9U*5y7Rl65eTYk63L5a8wSi8Ouc83gAZTlsBEEmMlk0n29jOPSRDgJKsi7!hOvcJXXlbAPdiQbrYsL2e93Z!tE!fEJLJ5n!0EQ*WEj/Roland%27s%20Shackle.jpg?dc=4675406525914425354[/img]



He also provides an image on how to Larkshead a line or a chicken loop AFTER the plastic sheathing has been stripped from it. This approach doesn't employ rings, carabiners or shackles for connecting components.

<!-- BBCode Start --><IMG SRC="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TADeAlkV6BZW5Jxz4HkSWsGyLo9qWbIIwE!AFYhVbxw!Oal0a4BH1b0N6f3uhf5z2GMZ9PWSfjzeAG59ZxYA59rRq0rXzsWcFW8qza84B27tBO*wyA9Z3A/Lark%27s%20Head.jpg?dc=4675406525909005741[/img]

Over to Mel and thanks!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-23 02:34 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-23 02:36 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-23 02:38 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-23 02:39 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-23 02:41 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:35 am 
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I don't have a picture handy (I'll make one...) but one thing most of you do wrong with any of these - Ronstan or Wichard - is making a U-shape attachment to the chicken loop. It's even worse if it's something like a small metal ring.

Simply, the best release comes from the 'side' with a thick, stiff medium twisting to get free.

Meaning: a thick, plasic covered rope with a ball shape on the end pressures the lever open in multiple ways.

A large diameter rope doesn't hang on an open end...the short, stiff sheathing wrenches the jaw open..and the ball end further throws open the jaws as it rolls away from the fitting's end.

I have a mental picture of a fitting that would scream to get out of the closed loop, but it'd need to be forged, and there are certain to be more advancements from branded companies.

jim_wetstuff


and: Forget the side-pin QR's...welded ring or not... like Ronstan. They are simply DANGEROUS. You are much better off with 10 hair-trigger releases you get with the Wichard - than one non-release you WILL get with the side pin types.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:42 am 
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This part refused to upload, so I reposted it here from Mel's photos...

He also provides an image on how to Larkshead a line or a chicken loop AFTER the plastic sheathing has been stripped from it. This approach doesn't employ rings, carabiners or shackles for connecting components.

<!-- BBCode Start --><IMG SRC="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TADeAlkV6BZW5Jxz4HkSWsGyLo9qWbIIwE!AFYhVbxw!Oal0a4BH1b0N6f3uhf5z2GMZ9PWSfjzeAG59ZxYA59rRq0rXzsWcFW8qza84B27tBO*wyA9Z3A/Lark%27s%20Head.jpg?dc=4675406525909005741[/img]


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