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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 6:28 am 
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Note that the above lark's head technique can also be used to attach a plain ring to the trim loop (after cutting off the plastic).

Thanks for posting the photos for me Rick.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:01 am 
I have the wipika system showed earlier in this thread.

IT IS BRILIANT!

I don't care who makes what or what you fly even foil LEI who cares.

I do care about being able to release. Locally conditions have been right at the edge of my ability envelope. Even when overpowered to a scary degree this pin system has released with ease and without fail. I LOVE IT!

I reccomend it to anyone with queries and just ditch the snapshackle, whoever makes it. If the pin tends to bend then maybe it's something you replace after 50 sessions or so? I don't know but I do know that you should alwayd be able to release.

What price your safety? (you paid at least £500 for the kite)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:05 am 
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and if you combine the wipika QR with an wichard snap-shacle you got the best of both worlds. if the wichard for some reason don't release, pull the pin on the chickenloop. then you should be able to just connect the wichard directly to your chickenloop without removing the tubing


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:52 am 
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Quote:
On 2003-01-23 11:28, Szymon wrote:
Witchard 2673 ??? What is this??


came up in the voting thread...

The early photos in this thread were of a slightly modified Wichard snap shackle sold by Kiteproshop.com. Another from the Wichard site appears below:

Image

IMPORTANT: on a yacht you may have the luxury of considered, even involved release of one of these snap shackles. In kiteboarding and potentially in an emergency, you may not have much time at all to fool with this thing to release it.

Some systems employ the pin with knobs shown above at the start of this thread. Others use line and a knob, some have used a combination of nylon webbing and a longer plastic tube to grab a hold of. I have heard stories of riders using the Wichard, right out of the store, WITH NO EASY MEANS OF RELEASING IT. Please don't do this.

Many retailers carry Wichards that have been MODIFIED to aid release. Please get one of these or do your own reliable, tested release modification. Any mechanical release needs to be regulary tested and carefully maintained to improve the odds that it will work as intended when needed.

All this about shackles is great and thanks for all the input. It is important to remember that AVOIDING the emergency situation in the first place is far better and more reliable than ANY release on the market today.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-23 11:56 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-23 11:58 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:48 pm 
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Hi RickI! I understand your ambivalence towards the snap shackles and I have to tell you guys whether it is Wichard or Tylaska or any other snap shackle it was not designed as a safety QR.
On the ACC boats eg trigger snaps
http://www.wichard.com
(compare snap shakle see pic above - msg from RickI) are used so that you can quickly reestablish spinaker/line/boom connection while changing a spi in flight or during spi maneouvers. All manipulation is supposed to be carried out in merely unloaded/partially loaded conditions.
Interestingly the trigger snap is a more refined one than the side release snap shackle because thank to the elbow geometry the load is being distributed to relieve that snapping part. I dont know tho if the trigger type shackle works good in KS.
Someone said on the forum (sorry I cant go back to his text or I ll lose this essay here :smile: )
someone said that snap shackle was built so that it doesnt like to open when loaded - that is right!

As you may know on boats you learn to cherish simplicity and purpose over
variety and any multi-point-release-and-adjustment systems so that you dont end up pulling the wrong line instantly anihilating all you have achieved in years of hard work.
Shackles work optimally in sailing and so you have to assume their incompatibility with the needs of KS.
I am not recomending the use of any sailing type shackle in KS!

RickI, I appreciate your work very much and so I think that along with the general safety guide-lines and extinguishing single fires we need
a compressed gear safety thing as well.
I know there are safety guidelines that you personally have contributed to.
That is why I suggest we draw some simple gear safety system guide-lines to fit all systems instead of having to permanently adapt to every little invention or improvement.
It seems inevitable to me.
Imagine eg a message-in-a-bottle gear safety tag in every kite bar giving the beginner or switcher a few concise gear safety tips as opposed to the long general safety instructions that are stored online.
Unfortunately I am staying in a cold weather and have just one foil with me to be of great help developing that kind of approach now.
It seems there are many guys from FL on the forum. If I was there I`d try to get you guys together, ask Paul Menta for cooperation and support and work out a really compressed type of gear safety guide-lines.

Cheers,
Adam



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ccat on 2003-01-23 20:18 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ccat on 2003-01-23 23:25 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:05 pm 
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Thanks for all the input in this thread. Please don't forget to make your views known about side release snap shackles and pin quick releases. Your opinions may prompt someone to rethink their gear selection and thereby possibly save them from a nasty experience one of these days.

http://www.kiteforum.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... &forum=1&9

Mel asked me to upload another image. I tried to enlarge it but the image quality suffered a bit in the process. I will leave it up to Mel to provide the description. It is from:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/ ... 20Mods.jpg

Image



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RickI on 2003-01-23 15:08 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:47 pm 
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Quote:
On 2003-01-22 20:50, RickI wrote:
Murdoc,
[...]
The "side release" shackles do cost less, about half that price of the Wichards and Tylaskas but what good does the savings do if they contribute to an accident.
[...]

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi




everytime i hear this arument about the wichard being at least twice as expensive than the other shackles, i ask the guy how much he spent on his kite(s), his board, his wetsuit, harness, acessories, fuel to the coast and so on.
it's just stupid to safe at the one piece that can safe your bum when it hits the fan.

i've had at least two releases where i saved myself from a voyage to the land of pain that possibly would not have worked with a side - released shackle.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:41 pm 
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Thanks Rick! Voluntary work for a good cause is really rewarding! :grin:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:49 pm 
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Ive been locked to my kite for over a year now, flown only in southern cali where the wind never gets above 25 mph, and yet to have a problem ... I think it is personal choice, and all i do is tie a knot in the end of the chicken loop, shackle and go nuke.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:39 pm 
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Quote:
On 2003-01-23 12:48, ccat wrote:

I have to tell you guys whether it is Wichard or Tylaska or any other snap shackle it was not designed as a safety QR.
On the ACC boats eg trigger snaps... are used...
Interestingly the trigger shackle is a more refined one than the snap shackle because thanks to the elbow geometry the load is being distributed to relieve that snapping part. I dont know tho if the trigger type shackle works good in KS... snap shackle was built so that it doesnt like to open when loaded...


The Wichards we're discussing (#2673 shown in photo "C" above) are tip-pivot, line release* NOT the "traditional" style (side-pivot, pin-release). The Tylaskas we're discussing are also tip-pivot, & are trigger-release. All the catalogs I've seen use the term "snap shackle" to include all these types. Tip-pivot snap shackles DO release easily under load.

* Often modified to effectively become trigger-release, as shown in the very first photo on this topic.

As for photo "C" above, that's what I've been using for several hundred hours now (no ring, just a line loop). I activate it every time I land, & before I got the release line/ball just right, I had several pre-releases under full load while riding. It has released every single time. Once the line loop gets pretty worn, if there is VERY low load it starts to stick a bit on the loop after the shackle opens. This simply acts as an early indicator that I need to replace the line.


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