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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:00 am 
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Posts: 24
Strong enough to disprove every comment you have to say about foils. I was thinking the other day, some newbie guy i work with got into kiteing and he has started on a Diesel 13m. Essentially a crappy Fuel (You don't buy SS to get a budget kite) but anyway he was given some smack talk about how for wave riding (what he wants to do) that tubes are the thing to have in the surf. Apparently foils turn to slowly, cannot be relaunched in waves etc blah blah. Then i got thinking on how many people talk to me about how much better tubes are upwind, jumping doing tricks etc and after everytime of asking 'have you flown them?' or 'Show me something you can do on your tube i can't on my foil' the answer is no or some other excuse, it all began to make sense.

It seems that people don't buy foils for 2 reasons. 1 is because they are a newbie and know nothing about kiteing so get what their friends are riding or what they see at the beach. The other reason is from reading consistant drivel from people who have never flown anything but tubes and repeat the same crap about why not to buy anything else over and over. It's like anything i suppose if you say it enough eventually you'll believe it.

In light of all this i feel it time to begin doing exactly the same. At my local beach generally the beach is 70/30 tubes and on some occasions can be 70/30 foils. What i think i'll start doing is scare mongering about tubes. Some phrases i've thought up:

"Should keep away from <insert tube kite> i hear people have had bladders pop in mid flight and get spanked up the beach"

"I wouldn't do many tricks on those <insert tube kite> when they slam down some have ripped in half, it's the type of stiching apparently"

"I wouldn't feel safe on a tube way out the back as some guys bladder valve popped open and he had to swim, but his kite was destroyed by the waves"

"That new 5th flips that kite <insert tube kite> over and then rips them in half"

I think it's only fair


Last edited by IanR on Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:14 am 
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Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 12:07 pm
Posts: 1420
Location: NW Pacific
OK, selassie,
I gather from your posts that when you're not toking up or administering to your new found hobby of posting on kiteforum you kite in Hawaii, perhaps on Oahu, perhaps on Maui.

There is a fellow there (Oahu) who owns a kiteboarding shop called Big Kahuna Ocean Sports in Kapolei. Nice guy. Telephone # is (808) 342-6329. He has flown tubes, Flysurfers, and arcs and I think he now prefers arcs.


I suggest you pay him a visit and learn a little more about "soft" kites and then get back to us on how it went. A little advice, however, I don't think I'd mention you called all foil kiters "ghey" (whatever that is) since he weighs around 220 and is married if I'm not mistaken.


If you're on Kauai why don't you call Laird Hamilton up and ask him about his first kite experience which was on a parafoil. (hint, don't tell him about the "Ghey" thing either)
Big Kahuna Ocean Sports-
http://www.gobigkahuna.com/

Lastly, not everybody knows that "ghey" just means uncool. they might take it to mean something entirely different.


Last edited by chemosavi on Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:22 am 
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Posts: 24
Quote:
ghey
Unknown to some, the slang word "Ghey" does not refer to being homosexual. In fact, it refers to being lame or uncool.
Gay = Homosexual
Ghey = Un1337
Tahnok = ghey


http://www.urbandictionary.com

For those who interested.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:21 pm
Posts: 346
:advise:
Foils cannot jump as high as inflatable kites... A foil will fill with water when you crash it and even if you do get it back in the air, it will be hard to get all the water out and fly it efficiently again......It's no fun swimming your kite in because it won't re-launch.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:34 pm 
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Posts: 1488
yes a open cell foil will fill with water.

the others, Flysurfer, Peter Lynn, VIO etc will not fill with water you doofus.

i can get my 17m foil off the water quicker than any LEI. FACT.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:27 pm 
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quote
"Half of those photos don't even show the kite............The ones that do show the kite are WEAK."

selassie, your math isnt really good either, heh?

16 photos of which 3 dont show the kite but you can clearly see that they are using a flysurfer foil (check the lines and bars).

So in your book thats half...

Aaw selassie, time to roll another joint and make sure mommy doesnt see you.

I miss PMU - his postings were at least worth a laugh.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:08 pm 
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I agree with the spirit of IanR's comments, in that rhetoric can be bent to any purpose, whether it be to trash one type of design or the next. I mean, bud light, or miller light, right? If you want to bash something, bash the Pontiac Torrent--it sucks.

My experience with foils on water is with a Peter Lynn Bomba 15m. I learned to ride on water with this kite and it served well. The depower is excellent, and I feel it is a great learning platform in that when you fall, your kite is still in the air, and thus you get more chances to try getting up on your board per session. One caveat to that is, if you're in a volatile wind environment, the kite being constantly overhead could pose a lofting danger, one we don't have much trouble with here in Minnesota.

The downside (of this particular kite, in my opinion) is that it steers somewhat slower than an equivalent LEI, and due to having little rigidity, tends to flex, or give, when yanking the bar in, so you're not going to get huge air with this thing. But those same qualities make it a great learning kite.

Another downside (of this particular kite, in my opinion) is that ground handling can be problematic if a large open beach is unavailable. Here in MN, where I learned, you wind up in amongst docks and unfriendly shoreline with overhanging trees, and in this case the kite is a problem child, as it eventually gets waterlogged, and then torn up pretty badly as you try to get it onto shore while it has 100 pounds of water in it. An equivalent LEI, on the other hand, could be picked up with one hand and simply placed on the beach.

As far as water relaunch goes, the Bomba was great, I would say a bit easier than a C-kite (comparing it to Cabrinha's element, and Windwing's 2005 Rapture). However, like all kites, it had potential to stir up trouble, in particular, it liked to bow-tie and invert, and often I found after a relaunch, I was flying with front/back lines crossed over.

To sum up, I would recommend the Peter Lynn foils for learning, but only if you have a lot of open shoreline available. I have sworn never to use mine on water again.

And I have to thank the Bomba for my first truly ecstatic kite experience, when it just lifted me off the water unexpectedly and plunked me down 10 feet away.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:44 pm
Posts: 760
Location: Windekind,Belgium
IanR wrote:
Strong enough to disprove every comment you have to say about foils. I was thinking the other day, some newbie guy i work with got into kiteing and he has started on a Diesel 13m. Essentially a crappy Fuel (You don't buy SS to get a budget kite) but anyway he was given some smack talk about how for wave riding (what he wants to do) that tubes are the thing to have in the surf. Apparently foils turn to slowly, cannot be relaunched in waves etc blah blah. Then i got thinking on how many people talk to me about how much better tubes are upwind, jumping doing tricks etc and after everytime of asking 'have you flown them?' or 'Show me something you can do on your tube i can't on my foil' the answer is no or some other excuse, it all began to make sense.

It seems that people don't buy foils for 2 reasons. 1 is because they are a newbie and know nothing about kiteing so get what their friends are riding or what they see at the beach. The other reason is from reading consistant drivel from people who have never flown anything but tubes and repeat the same crap about why not to buy anything else over and over. It's like anything i suppose if you say it enough eventually you'll believe it.

In light of all this i feel it time to begin doing exactly the same. At my local beach generally the beach is 70/30 tubes and on some occasions can be 70/30 foils. What i think i'll start doing is scare mongering about tubes. Some phrases i've thought up:

"Should keep away from <insert> i hear people have had bladders pop in mid flight and get spanked up the beach"

"I wouldn't do many tricks on those <insert> when they slam down some have ripped in half, it's the type of stiching apparently"

"I wouldn't feel safe on a tube way out the back as some guys bladder valve popped open and he had to swim, but his kite was destroyed by the waves"

"That new 5th flips that kite <insert> over and then rips them in half"

I think it's only fair


and others like myself started on a foil in good belief that foils were the future so they should buy the latest state of the art foil (Flysurfer SPeed at the time) with some big cash.

It came out that no one at his beach could give him advice, or even help him in case of an emergency for example. They wouldn't even approach me and look as if I was gay or something :lol:

the kite couldn't handle the unstable side/sideoffshore winds we get here a lot and it definitely couldn't stand up to being washed in the waves! also the claims of the best depower ever yet were unprofound as little than half a year later they did really make a kite that depowered more like a bow.

The marketing bullshit cuts on both sides! and foils definitely aren't superior to Ckites! (although I won't say they are worse)
although u say foils like flysurfer don't catch any water, when a kite gets rinsed by a wave I'd much prefer it to be a Ckite that has some chance of relaunching (eventhough with crossed lines) than it to be a bag full of water that is almost impossible to swim out because all the water in it creates too much drag and the only way out is to go with the current...

My conclusion:
A foil simply does not work for these purposes:
-not beginner friendly (not very stable and no one can help u out! you're on your own!)
-unstable wind (tips folding in and bridle catching behind it, shooting rapidly to the edge of the window and past in a gust and it will end up getting teabagged (kite twisted in the middle with the bridle completely around it on one side). offcourse its a lot more sensitive to this when you're not moving aswell as having the bar sheeted out, but if u compare it to a modern Ckite they don't need u to control the kite this much either!!
-waves! (the only chance u have of relaunching is if u crash it inbetween waves and at our beach the interval within the waves near the shore is just too little) u will loose your kite a lot faster here if it gets rolled compared to a CKite

I traded mine in and bought a 9 and 14m waroo with one bar for the same price of the one flysurfer. Where with the flysurfer I could only fly from about 13 to 16knots and could hardly handle it on land past 16knots, I could go out in any conditions ranging from 13 to 30knots in full safety!

Had trouble staying on the board (forget about going upwind!) for about 4months on the speed (lots of dissapointment with the kite ending up in spaghetti, very little sessions because the wind was hardly ideal for learning). Bought the waroos and the first session that I flew em I was going upwind! That same month I was already jumping and having more fun than I ever had!
Never had a problem of not being able to handle the kite on my own anymore that required my dad to stand by, and I could always ask the local boarders for advice or to launch my kite. Whenever I want it to stop or if I fell, the kite would not drag me away from my board and I would rarely have to relaunch it (it was just waiting on its tip and a second later it would be up in the skies if I pulled on the bar). oh and no more wet trunks because of a kite that holds lots of water when its raining or when u have to swim it out of the sea because of light winds!

I now have lots of kiteboarding friends at my local spot.
Happy ending!

PS: Stop convincing newbies to join your foil ranks! its safe to have what everyone else has just because of security reasons! for a newbie the advantages to having a foil are minimal if there are any at all (the only that I could think of is fast relaunch, but a bow staying on its side when u let go of the bar that doesn't require relaunch totally outperforms that!)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:04 am
Posts: 18
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Hi Helldog,

1. Sorry for my English (not 1st language)

2. I've been flying FS for 3 years. Please note that I have never flown another brand of kite (this is not by close mindedness, just lack of opportunities).

3. I am not surprised about your poor experience. The Speed is not a beginner kite. It is a huge AR kite that has its very specific qualities : speed (surprise?) and hangtime... I would definitely not recommend the Speed for a beginner, and I think that you have unfortunately not been correctly advised on the suitable choice for your first kite. For comparison, the FS Pulse (the FS model after the Speed) is a much easier kite. The Speed feels like a Ferrari, and the Pulse like a...whatever easy 4 cylinder student car you can think of.

I am glad to read that you have since found some kites that much better fits your style.

Regards,

Fred :)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:26 pm
Posts: 676
Location: Bavaria
HelldogBE wrote:
IanR wrote:
Strong enough to disprove every comment you have to say about foils. I was thinking the other day, some newbie guy i work with got into kiteing and he has started on a Diesel 13m. Essentially a crappy Fuel (You don't buy SS to get a budget kite) but anyway he was given some smack talk about how for wave riding (what he wants to do) that tubes are the thing to have in the surf. Apparently foils turn to slowly, cannot be relaunched in waves etc blah blah. Then i got thinking on how many people talk to me about how much better tubes are upwind, jumping doing tricks etc and after everytime of asking 'have you flown them?' or 'Show me something you can do on your tube i can't on my foil' the answer is no or some other excuse, it all began to make sense.

It seems that people don't buy foils for 2 reasons. 1 is because they are a newbie and know nothing about kiteing so get what their friends are riding or what they see at the beach. The other reason is from reading consistant drivel from people who have never flown anything but tubes and repeat the same crap about why not to buy anything else over and over. It's like anything i suppose if you say it enough eventually you'll believe it.

In light of all this i feel it time to begin doing exactly the same. At my local beach generally the beach is 70/30 tubes and on some occasions can be 70/30 foils. What i think i'll start doing is scare mongering about tubes. Some phrases i've thought up:

"Should keep away from <insert> i hear people have had bladders pop in mid flight and get spanked up the beach"

"I wouldn't do many tricks on those <insert> when they slam down some have ripped in half, it's the type of stiching apparently"

"I wouldn't feel safe on a tube way out the back as some guys bladder valve popped open and he had to swim, but his kite was destroyed by the waves"

"That new 5th flips that kite <insert> over and then rips them in half"

I think it's only fair


and others like myself started on a foil in good belief that foils were the future so they should buy the latest state of the art foil (Flysurfer SPeed at the time) with some big cash.

It came out that no one at his beach could give him advice, or even help him in case of an emergency for example. They wouldn't even approach me and look as if I was gay or something :lol:

the kite couldn't handle the unstable side/sideoffshore winds we get here a lot and it definitely couldn't stand up to being washed in the waves! also the claims of the best depower ever yet were unprofound as little than half a year later they did really make a kite that depowered more like a bow.

The marketing bullshit cuts on both sides! and foils definitely aren't superior to Ckites! (although I won't say they are worse)
although u say foils like flysurfer don't catch any water, when a kite gets rinsed by a wave I'd much prefer it to be a Ckite that has some chance of relaunching (eventhough with crossed lines) than it to be a bag full of water that is almost impossible to swim out because all the water in it creates too much drag and the only way out is to go with the current...

My conclusion:
A foil simply does not work for these purposes:
-not beginner friendly (not very stable and no one can help u out! you're on your own!)
-unstable wind (tips folding in and bridle catching behind it, shooting rapidly to the edge of the window and past in a gust and it will end up getting teabagged (kite twisted in the middle with the bridle completely around it on one side). offcourse its a lot more sensitive to this when you're not moving aswell as having the bar sheeted out, but if u compare it to a modern Ckite they don't need u to control the kite this much either!!
-waves! (the only chance u have of relaunching is if u crash it inbetween waves and at our beach the interval within the waves near the shore is just too little) u will loose your kite a lot faster here if it gets rolled compared to a CKite

I traded mine in and bought a 9 and 14m waroo with one bar for the same price of the one flysurfer. Where with the flysurfer I could only fly from about 13 to 16knots and could hardly handle it on land past 16knots, I could go out in any conditions ranging from 13 to 30knots in full safety!

Had trouble staying on the board (forget about going upwind!) for about 4months on the speed (lots of dissapointment with the kite ending up in spaghetti, very little sessions because the wind was hardly ideal for learning). Bought the waroos and the first session that I flew em I was going upwind! That same month I was already jumping and having more fun than I ever had!
Never had a problem of not being able to handle the kite on my own anymore that required my dad to stand by, and I could always ask the local boarders for advice or to launch my kite. Whenever I want it to stop or if I fell, the kite would not drag me away from my board and I would rarely have to relaunch it (it was just waiting on its tip and a second later it would be up in the skies if I pulled on the bar). oh and no more wet trunks because of a kite that holds lots of water when its raining or when u have to swim it out of the sea because of light winds!

I now have lots of kiteboarding friends at my local spot.
Happy ending!

PS: Stop convincing newbies to join your foil ranks! its safe to have what everyone else has just because of security reasons! for a newbie the advantages to having a foil are minimal if there are any at all (the only that I could think of is fast relaunch, but a bow staying on its side when u let go of the bar that doesn't require relaunch totally outperforms that!)


Why the hell did you buy a Speed?
The Speed is an intermediate to expert riders kite for flat water, old school riding, great in light winds and boost well in medium winds.
Yet by the sounds of it you were a beginner, riding in waves with crappy, gusty offshore winds.
Now in my books you should have never been recommended this kite in the first place.
If you would have learned on a Pulse(I know it wasn't available at the time) your experiences would have definitely been very different.
I think a large part of why you don't like the foilkites anymore is because the kite you bought was way out of your league regarding your ability and the conditions you sail in.
I think it is probably the shop who sold it to you that is at fault unless you told him you were a very competent rider.
When I went to Barbados in February this year I met a guy who turned up with a Flydoor, a 10m and 17m Speed. He was still very much at the beginner stage.
Now personally I couldn't believe he was sold a quiver of two Speeds. The Door is a great learner board for sure but not really great for waves like in Barbados and the Speeds are definitely not my first choice in Barbados either and I am a very good rider.
I really can't understand why people think that they can buy the highest aspect ratio, most extreme foilkite on the market and then learn on it in cross-offshore-gusty-wave-conditions.
Common sense should tell you that this ain't the right choice.


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