All kites are great!!! LEI, Foils, ARCS.

Its good that there are lots of variations and preferences. Different strokes for different blokes

It would be a boring world if everyone flew the same kite. just like it would be a boring world if everyone drove a ferrari.

We need people like Chris to show that LEI is not the only way.
Good on him.

Yo Pumpy! We missed you buddy. I am in the mood to type some kite crap after a very nice kite tonight so here goes...



A depowerable ram air kite can be trimmed to any angle you want in flight. Fast and forward, slow and back or anything in between. The angles are still far in excess of those tubes are starting to get with 5th line systems.


[quote]
2: Inertia
[\quote]

Yeah. This is probably true for a big foil. Tubes definitely zing about the window faster than the equivalent size foil.

[quote]
3: Rigidity
[\quote]

In one context tubes are definitely more rigid than foils and that does give performance advantages. However, my foils never ever jellyfish and are much smoother and "quiter" in the air.


[quote]4: Wing tips[\quote]

Yep. Tubes turn faster and are more stable when sitting still at the edge of the window.

[quote]5: Foil shape[\quote]
I dunno about this one. My foils never jellyfish or wobble around.

[quote]6: Luff curve[\quote]
Sounds like technobabble to me. My foils can be trimmed to sit far more forward than any tube. The range and upwind performance of my foils will outdo any tube.

[quote]7: Relaunch[\quote]
It is true that foils relaunch more easily and it is true that I have not yet crashed my tube. Foils tend to crash for two reasons, they turn slower and you fly it into the water, or in light winds you get it so far forward that it runs out of power and drops into the water. My foils relaunch even when 5 line tubes won't. I think all kiters crash their kites if they pushing their limits.

[quote]8: Safety
- Inflatables are safer than ram airs because
-- Downwind launches are bloody SCARY for a beginner[\quote]

You don't downwind launch. You cross-side launch and fly it to the edge. Also, because they are not powered when they are partially inflated they are very controllable when launched. This means if you mis-connect the lines the kite simply won't fly. An assisted launch of a tube is the safest, easiest launch of all provided the lines are attached correctly. Launching a tube with mis-connected lines is the most dangerous launch of all.

[quote]-- Rams deform, twist, wineglass.....[\quote]
There is some truth in this and some exageration. My foils don't explosively open in the middle of the window any more than a tube floating down and recovering when the lines retension. You just point the bar and steer it out of the collapse same as a tube. They are harder to keep stable when walking along the beach in gusty conditions.

[quote]-- Wind dropouts and gear failure[\quote]
My foils are easier to keep in the air when on the water during wind dropout. When swooping about to maintain air speed you can do stall turns which rotate the kite within its length so you can send it through the window without dicking around at the edge.

Also, I have relaunched and sailed a kite back in after half the bridles broke and one case when I split the kite almost in half. Gear failures are no worse than an inflatable.

[quote]--- All ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged after 45 minutes - unlaunchable and certainly unable to support your body weight.[\quote]True Wear a life jacket. Don't wait so long to self-rescue. I never have.

[quote]-- Surf conditions[\quote]
The greater air volume means the kite bobs up and over the waves. This is what happens every time I drop my foils into the surf.

[quote]-- Bridle tangles and failures - Scary and expensive (US $500 plus) (eg see thread on this forum: "Flysurfer Warrior Exploding")[\quote]Bridles never tangle in use and mine will tangle once or twice a year if I'm not careful packing up. It only takes a few minutes to sort out. I must admit I am a little suspicious of the unsheathed bridle lines used on Flysurfers. I love sheathed bridle lines.

[quote]9 Pre-inflating
- Ram users struggle to pre-inflate their kites in a lot of situations eg cross- offshore conditions....[\quote]
True. Don't ride in offshore conditions with any kind of kite. I'm still thinking about boat launches. A tube would certainly have an advantage for wet launching.

[quote]10 Resale[\quote]
Generally true

[quote]11 Repairs
- Ram air repairs are generally a LOT more expensive. ....[\quote]

Absolute unmitigated crap. I have repaired tube kites and done LOTS of repairs and modification on foils. Foils are way easier because, it is all soft sail cloth, there are no engineered structures, every cell is virtually identical to its neighbour. 99% of repairs you simply tape up and sew around the edge with a domestic sewing machine.

[quote]12 Competition[\quote]


On the one hand it would be nice to see foils appear in competitions. On the other hand, Lou Wainman and others don't go in competitions. Competitions in general are entertainments. They have very little relevance to the average person. Otherwise we would all drive Ferraris.

The day i see a decent rider do tricks like my mate lewis on a foil then i might concoder them equal to LEI

until then they are flying matresses that should be for christmas not for life.

or for beginners who need to learn how to fly a kite.

i have never ever seen anyone ride one well.

all they do is go upwind and do long floaty jumps. I like blades though!

Jase - go to hunstanton and check Sven or Little Adam.....or look at the flysurfer site and see what Sebastian Bubman is doing

Mind you when I go to the beach I see loads and loads of tube riders and really only one Lewis.....so if we talk in terms of percentages....it's numbers game really

guess so but still not convinced

why isnt anyone decent sttracted to them?

why doesnt flysurfer buy someone?

ok how about chasta....why don't a tube company use him or buy him out? why doesn't he change to tubes 5th line relaunch and all that ....either it's down to the rider or those ozones must be good...or both

isnt he the snowkiting guy?

it's cause FS don't want or need to pay someone vast quantities of money to sell kites based on the unattainable image of the stereotypical "pro kiter", they sell by word of mouth and small adverts and so far that's proved a perfectly reasonable business strategy since they are definately a growing company - i remember last year or possibly the year before one of the major LEI manufacturers paid one of their teamriders four times what Flysurfer spent on R&D for the whole year, makes you think of how much a specialist company they really are - although Sebastian is doing some amazing stuff on FS, and the PL teamriders are doing all the right moves, some people will never be open minded enough to consider FS or PL a viable option, which is a shame

Ok, to throw some wood on the fire again, and back to the original topic starter, here is a shot I found on foilzone, it's with a psycho2 21m in 8-10 knots. You do the math how high it is. For me it's more then adequate to have decent fun in this windrange

I bet i could have more fun in 8-10 knots with my 11m fuel on short lines on a pulley bar.