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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:42 pm 
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Any new ideas on this old post? Quite a few guys seem to be lost if there is no one around to catch their kite. I think Murdoc was on to something.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:33 pm 
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I was in a similar situation a few weeks back. Went out 15-20kn on a 14. Wind picked upto 25 with 35 gusts. I stacked the kite. It got itself in a figure 8 and i was washing downwind. Downwind (quite a way) was a rock groyne. There was no-one to help for miles and in any case i would hit the groyne before they would have been close enought to help !!

I tried to re-launch for about 10 minutes. When about 300 metres away from the groyne and it was clear there was no chance of a relaunch, i swam down the upwind line and grabbed the kite. Lines were a mess but got into shore without incident. Only thing you need to be really careful of is that you don't get tangled up in the lines as they can act like cobwebs if you are not careful.

Would have been nice to wind the lines on the bar but from a number experiences doing this you need a fair bit of time (ie drift space) to do this. Also winding in the water in really heavy winds is bloody hard and slow work...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:59 pm 
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hvyprq wrote:
I was in a similar situation a few weeks back. Went out 15-20kn on a 14. Wind picked upto 25 with 35 gusts. I stacked the kite. It got itself in a figure 8 and i was washing downwind. Downwind (quite a way) was a rock groyne. There was no-one to help for miles and in any case i would hit the groyne before they would have been close enought to help !!

I tried to re-launch for about 10 minutes. When about 300 metres away from the groyne and it was clear there was no chance of a relaunch, i swam down the upwind line and grabbed the kite. Lines were a mess but got into shore without incident. Only thing you need to be really careful of is that you don't get tangled up in the lines as they can act like cobwebs if you are not careful.

Would have been nice to wind the lines on the bar but from a number experiences doing this you need a fair bit of time (ie drift space) to do this. Also winding in the water in really heavy winds is bloody hard and slow work...


Glad you made it in and without damaging anything. You are right, setting up to self-rescue can really make a rat's nest of your lines particularly in waves. On the one hand you might be better off in wrapping the lines up first (ONE LINE ONLY for the length of at least one wing span first of course to depower the kite), assuming you can do that without catching a finger or anything else, Catch 22. If things go well without excessive wind or wave force, wrapping your line up first may not be that hard to do but be careful all the same.

Sometimes the line seems to be all over the place making it very difficult to NOT get tangled. If you hit some breaking waves and your kite is still able to load up things could really get complicated. The same might be said if your kite that you are sailing in with gets popped up in some strong gusts. Tricky stuff and no easy answers. It is nice when the kite just relaunches and allows you to avoid this exercise. Still, most riders will need to self rescue at some time. So, it is good to practice this basic skill before you actually need to do it.

Regarding the original post, everyone is OK with rapid solo landing at this point I hope, right?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:17 am 
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Yep, Murdoc has the right idea. That's what the safety leash is for. If as you say the water is relatively calm then it shouldn't bash too much onto the rocks, if it has to touch them at all. It should be possible to catch it before it gets there I'm sure, I've done it myself. I've even done a couple of times the variation where I didn't lose the bar, just landed the kite in the water and hauled in the upwind lines first. In all honesty I don't see what the fuss is about, sounds like a pretty simple solution.

Something else interesting happened to me last Friday though. My harness tore in half! Safety leash stayed on the harness, but lot of good that would have done anyone standing on the beach as the bar then the harness whistled past on the end of my 17m. Good thing there was no-one there. All was good, no kite damage, got a new better harness the next day, just a reminder that when you think you're doing everything safe, bad things still happen to good people.

And to that bloke who was trying to teach his mates how to fly a 4 line LEI kite on Saturday, if you are reading this, if you must do it yourself, I would suggest starting on a trainer kite of some description first. Good thing it was only you who got smashed by the lines on crash number 34.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:31 pm 
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GreenPat wrote:
Yep, Murdoc has the right idea. That's what the safety leash is for. If as you say the water is relatively calm then it shouldn't bash too much onto the rocks, if it has to touch them at all. It should be possible to catch it before it gets there I'm sure, I've done it myself. I've even done a couple of times the variation where I didn't lose the bar, just landed the kite in the water and hauled in the upwind lines first. In all honesty I don't see what the fuss is about, sounds like a pretty simple solution.

Something else interesting happened to me last Friday though. My harness tore in half! Safety leash stayed on the harness, but lot of good that would have done anyone standing on the beach as the bar then the harness whistled past on the end of my 17m. Good thing there was no-one there. All was good, no kite damage, got a new better harness the next day, just a reminder that when you think you're doing everything safe, bad things still happen to good people.

And to that bloke who was trying to teach his mates how to fly a 4 line LEI kite on Saturday, if you are reading this, if you must do it yourself, I would suggest starting on a trainer kite of some description first. Good thing it was only you who got smashed by the lines on crash number 34.


Having a harness rip off of you suddenly is a special experience isn't it? I had two windsurfing harnesses rip off, once during mid jump years ago. I should have seen it coming as the nylon strap was showing some wear but it I thought it was far from suddenly parting. The forces we deal with are substantial and it is a good idea to repair or retire any load bearing article that is showing damage before it suddenly fails.

Good luck with the LEI guy at your launch. Why do newbies try to teach friends how to kiteboard before they learn themselves and on full sized kites? I have seen this fairly often. It shows a lack of appreciation for what can go wrong in this sport and some of the complexities that lay just beneath the surface.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:27 pm 
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yes rick a lack of appreciation...
but one of the major problem our kind of sport is facing is its "easiness"

ok guys don' t get me wrong...
the sport is easy to learn, in 3 hours you can get one guy tacking out and back...but to understand what's relevant to the safety aspect of the sport takes much more time.
by giving proper lessons about risks inherant to the sport, a good instructor can deliver a message that will be helpfull, but will not guaranty the total safety of a beginner...
you can not ask people who did not get through some trouble to have some good commun sense, neither can you ask them to deliver an acceptable message.
I read the threat opposing low/high and this is what I could summarise:
low kite is good, high kite is good also, but rider should use common sense to decide where to place their kite :o :o
If I was a beginner, this would have no sense at all to me.
before asking people to think, give them the neccessary information to get a good opinion on a problem.
the only pb is that when someone is giving info, it's always bs, at least a little bit, due to the word used to explain somehting ( Fo will probably agree on this), and information messages tend than to become 'propaganda' msg. :cry:

don't ask people to do more than they are able to, and give them all the means to improve, but never expect they will think or act the proper way

history of the world is there to prove it


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:32 pm 
Ok,
Great post my man!!

I can't stress this enough, Talk just don't do, If you exaggerate it's bulshit isn't it?, if you freak-um out and force them to be scared to death they are compromised by the fear,,

The only way to aquaint them with the forces and make them less fearful is to let them get whooped,,, (deep water whoop ass trainning)

After you get flung a half a dozen times the NEW the SHOCK the AWE starts to fade and it's more like fuck me :-? not again.

You see you have to learn that it goes bad and that it will stop eventually and that to avoid taking the slam you have to either manage your kite or pull the plug,,,,,


This soft fuzzy gentle intro is laced with the horror of sudden death.

It all adds up to POO Bear with axe behind his back!!

Show them the axe let them swing it, let them get famillar with the axe, turn them into woodsman......Turn them away from the talk and let them feel the love.

Patty cake instruction is the reaper's free lunch.

Safety freaks are a safety hazzard

fokiten
Ps. fuck,,,I'm trying to get off this panzy wheel


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:43 pm 
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Ah fo - we've had this discussion already...


Let me recap:
- Shock & awe killed/maimed a lot of innocents and bystanders - same thing will happen if applied to kitesurfing. Yeah, maybe we taught a few people a lesson, but at what price?

- when you don't have the skills to fly the kite out of trouble (trainer practice helps a lot there...), you need to learn to pull the plug first. And a lot more guys have been saved by pulling the plug than by trying to fly the kite out of trouble...

- no need to exaggerate/bullshit as there are plenty of real-world examples to choose from (just read the incident database).

- learning from other people's mistakes is the best way to learn when one mistake could kill you - ask a BASE jumper...

- fear keeps more people alive than overconfidence.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:50 pm 
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murdoc wrote:
rick,
what's wrong with the good ol' leash?

both with airush reride system and KPS-bar, i pull the shackle and that giant machine that's bullying me around just drops dead instantly ?!?

i've had gusts of about 35-40 knots on my 16 and the leash did the job without any problems . . .


Deploying to leash in the water and wind up sounds like a
no-brainer to me.
In fact I've done it at 3rd Ave beach when very gusty conditions
made landing (self or assisted) so close to the rock groyn just a
little too funky for my liking - and not a squall in sight


Steve T.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:59 pm 
Tom183 wrote:
Ah fo - we've had this discussion already...


Let me recap:
- Shock & awe killed/maimed a lot of innocents and bystanders - same thing will happen if applied to kitesurfing. Yeah, maybe we taught a few people a lesson, but at what price?

- when you don't have the skills to fly the kite out of trouble (trainer practice helps a lot there...), you need to learn to pull the plug first. And a lot more guys have been saved by pulling the plug than by trying to fly the kite out of trouble...

- no need to exaggerate/bullshit as there are plenty of real-world examples to choose from (just read the incident database).

- learning from other people's mistakes is the best way to learn when one mistake could kill you - ask a BASE jumper...

- fear keeps more people alive than overconfidence.


Tom,

If you were to change your tune, from dead babies and bystanders, from kiiled and maimed, from shattered lives and certain death, from little?? baby kites in gentle breezes, helmet heads afraid of sneezes, Tom, Tom Tom,,,,,

If you were to look at this without a savior's zeal, pull your head out of his ass and ask what lesson is revieled?

Then you might see, whoop ass trainning "is" the way to get that plug pulled

Remember? (data dude) after getting flung a half a dozen times or so the SHOCK the AWE start to fade and it becomes more like> fuck me :wink: not again,,,,>pop.

How many lives would whoop-ass trainning have saved?

I'd guess most of them, Tom,,

Mr. safety freak, Mr. trainner kite, Mr. data dude...

fuck off, or better yet, why don't you polish your boy freind's helmet :lol:

fokiten

PS. Special Thanks to STF for liberating my vocabulary :thumb: Thanks man...


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