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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:45 pm 
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One question fo: have you read the incident database? I have and it doesn't support your position at all...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:47 pm 
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P.S.: keep your day job, poetry like that I wouldn't wipe my ass with...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:48 pm 
theflyingtinman wrote:
murdoc wrote:
rick,
what's wrong with the good ol' leash?

both with airush reride system and KPS-bar, i pull the shackle and that giant machine that's bullying me around just drops dead instantly ?!?

i've had gusts of about 35-40 knots on my 16 and the leash did the job without any problems . . .


Deploying to leash in the water and wind up sounds like a
no-brainer to me.
In fact I've done it at 3rd Ave beach when very gusty conditions
made landing (self or assisted) so close to the rock groyn just a
little too funky for my liking - and not a squall in sight


Steve T.


You bet Tinman,

Even better.... I have a clip on my board for snapping on my safety leash to my board,,,,> I dont wind the lines I just crawl up them to the kite, once there (in a quarter of the time it would take you to wind) I'm in total control and my board holds the bar and my bar hold my board and YES I think for myself I don't suffer fools or wishful thinkers

Safety Freaks can be a threat to the public good because they fear every thing, and think NOTHING through, yet offer half baked ideas based on wishful thinking,, I'm sick of them and their data base; they don't read it as is>> they change it to suit themselves and then sight it as gospel...fuck-wads

Fokiten

Thanks STF I feel free now


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:53 pm 
Tom183 wrote:
P.S.: keep your day job, poetry like that I wouldn't wipe my ass with...


I love you tom, :D
This STF has got the plan :thumb:

I love you and your data base :D :D

Post the the sacred text, and show me how chatting up a trainner kiter in shallow water is the the fucking Bomb.

This will be good,,
fo


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:18 pm 
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Hello Loeuftok,

I agree, kiteboarding can be "dangerously easy" in appearance. It is similar to flying or driving a car in that respect. The "operation" is simple. Trying to avoid problems (other cars, bad weather, running out of fuel, etc.), is where all the knowledge and thinking come into play.

As to promoting "propaganda," I usually try to avoid falling into that trap. Sometimes successfully, perhaps at other times not. Still we REALLY need to talk this stuff over to TRY to avoid more repetition. Should we just rant and rave or try to toss out some considered ideas to try to avoid problems?

Regarding the whole "Low & Go" thing, that has been my take on avoiding many of the lofting accidents that I have evaluated, along with selecting acceptable weather, launch characteristics, buffer zones, etc., etc.. Admittedly, I have never seen many of those launch areas. I once was treated to a nice 100 ft.+ dragging at high speed years ago across sand with a small two line kite. I went off and cross wind to the ocean as opposed to downwind and into a building. I am not sure if that will always be the case even with side to side onshore winds particularly if you are majorily overpowered. Still emergencies will differ it is best to plan and rehearse according to your own local conditions.

I used the Low and Go approach or would have at many launches around Florida, Cape Hatteras, Maryland, Corpus Christi, Bimini, the Berry Islands, Bonaire, St. Martin, Puerto Rico, Antigua, Tortola, Anegada, Sand Cay, Cabarete, Grand Cayman, Nova Scotia, Cancun, Lake Arenal, Tarameundo, (only scoped out the last four for kiteboarding unfortunately).

I wouldn't promote it if I didn't believe in it and use it myself. Still, it may not be good for all launches so carefully consider what works in your area. Launching and landing "unhooked" is an important measure to work on as well regardless of where you choose to place your kite.

Still, excessively gusty conditions are rare in Florida and I wasn't using this approach the last time I was in Maui in 1999 with 20 to 45 mph winds during a given day. So, in such extreme conditions maybe you keep it as low as feasible to avoid snaring the landscape. That is why the Safe Kiteboarding Guidelines say:

" Kiteboarders should consider these ideas, area specific guidelines if applicable along with other prudent and safe practices appropriate for local conditions. ... Seek local, competent knowledge regarding safe local practices as special precautions may be indicated beyond those discussed here."

because it IS NOT feasible to anticipate all conditions that might be encountered worldwide in short document.

You may not be able to keep your kite low if winds are excessively gusty, too low in windspeed or if you choose to launch with a cluttered buffer zone, with a slippery surface. Choosing to kiteboard in such conditions may automatically increase your risk of course. The guidelines don't even support launching on a slippery surface with rocks downwind. Kiteboarders need to carefully build experience and knowledge of local conditions and kiteboarding.

There is no central "cookbook" that anticipates ALL conditions and appropriate precautions successfully to my knowlege. We do need to keep talking about this stuff intelligently and productively. To do otherwise is to contribute to more avoidable accidents, incidents and threats to access.


Last edited by RickI on Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:34 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:30 pm 
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Fo - you're so good at missing the point... (sigh)

THE POINT: safety must be approached comprehensively - there isn't just one thing that will make you safer, you need to cover all the bases (AND watch your ass).

Avoiding bad conditions is one thing - knowing how to fly a kite is another - wearing protective gear is another - and so on. Each one of these things helps a certain area but isn't nearly enough if taken in isolation: if you think a helmet is useless if you get tangled in your lines, you're right - but that's not what you wear a helmet for... That "a la carte" approach (such as wearing all the gear and ignoring everything else) will inevitably leave you exposed in some area or another.


Read the incident database and took a look at Rick's safety recommendations, maybe you'll start seeing the forest instead of the trees...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:46 pm 
Tom183 wrote:
Fo - you're so good at missing the point... (sigh)

THE POINT: safety must be approached comprehensively - there isn't just one thing that will make you safer, you need to cover all the bases (AND watch your ass).

Avoiding bad conditions is one thing - knowing how to fly a kite is another - wearing protective gear is another - and so on. Each one of these things helps a certain area but isn't nearly enough if taken in isolation: if you think a helmet is useless if you get tangled in your lines, you're right - but that's not what you wear a helmet for... That "a la carte" approach (such as wearing all the gear and ignoring everything else) will inevitably leave you exposed in some area or another.


Read the incident database and took a look at Rick's safety recommendations, maybe you'll start seeing the forest instead of the trees...


Tom,

If by comprehensive you mean include deep water whoop ass training as manditory before a new kiter ever sees land? that would be the first sensible thing you've said.


If not I love you and your data base :D (STF I love that guy now :thumb: )
fo

PS. Speaking of cooked books Rick :-? be careful I've little humor left, and I was never too gentle to start with.

A good start would be to knock off the long winded rhetoric, and use non-passive phrases.

Change may might could be a good thing, if you get my drift.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:10 pm 
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fokiten wrote:
Tom,
If by comprehensive you mean include deep water whoop ass training as manditory before a new kiter ever sees land?


It might be useful as part of a complete safety instruction (most schools do include body dragging to get a taste of this), but in isolation, sorry but it's just not going to cut it - there are no magic bullets, remember?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:24 pm 
Tom183 wrote:
fokiten wrote:
Tom,
If by comprehensive you mean include deep water whoop ass training as manditory before a new kiter ever sees land?


It might be useful as part of a complete safety instruction (most schools do include body dragging to get a taste of this), but in isolation, sorry but it's just not going to cut it - there are no magic bullets, remember?


I love you Tom, :D

The data base is just That a data base.

You are projecting your own interpitation to it and proclaiming a know it all attitude.

So am I, but my focus is on prevention, prevention should start by shutting the fuck up, and letting the mark get some kite time, that's my big secret plan :wink:

Your plan, if I read you right? is to talk them into a stuper while they fly a mini kite in shallow water,

You are a safety freak with a messiah complex

I'm a kite surfer with a smart kite to do my talking for me.

fokiten

Now fuck off safety freak, :D

I got things to do


Last edited by fokiten on Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:21 am 
Back on topic:

RickI,

My clip on the board idea is nice is it not?

My Idea may, could, I mean might, is possibly, perhaps would be one solution, that is mayb it might, could possibly, should perhaps provide a possible cure for the lines and the board.

did I say that right?

It puts the kiter at the kite fast,, it avoids the choking down of water and the slow,difficult winding doesn't it?

Maybe it may result in severe injury or death perhaps?

Who can fucking tell? 8)
fokiten


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