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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:50 pm 
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loeuftok wrote:
tom, tom tom...
decoding Fo is not more difficult than decoding RickI...
read and think about it...
take some time to get it in, analyse it :idea:
and then only post back...

you can be saved from becoming a real PMU...
:thumb:


As far as safety goes, yeah, I am a fanatic - seen too many "experienced" guys doing things that seemed pretty stupid, and almost get killed in the process (some have been - read the incident database for examples of guys like Fo who thought skill alone would keep them safe and didn't). It really made me aware that every single launch we have is just 1 incident away from a ban...

As a group, kiteboarders are making the sport far more dangerous than it needs to be - and until we all try to make it safer, we're going to continue having incidents and getting banned...

A few years ago, when the numbers were a lot smaller, the incidents were isolated, the bans few, and not many riders were affected - but with more people in the sport now, and little/no improvement in safety overall, the bans are coming fast and furious. I don't want people to get hurt or killed, but I'm even more concerned that the sport itself will be banned into oblivion due to simple neglect...

If we don't do something soon, we'll end up with a handful of isolated locations where a few lucky survivors can ride, while the rest of us have to sell our gear or travel thousands of miles just to get in a couple days a year...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:07 pm 
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Team,
we are on this forum because we want to learn. The book burners can claim "just do it" but, even they are here to learn. Once you have dipped your toe, why not go the whole way. Read the stuff. It won't pollute your mind. Choosing not to learn has yielded a long used term, it is called ignorance.

Larning takes many forms. Some will not become believers until they have been lofted. Some will read about it and respond appropriately. One is the school of hard knocks, the other is less hard knocks or maybe somebody else already paid for this.

Plan, think, act then play hard


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:10 pm 
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DontKiteHere wrote:
What Fo know's is from experience. Experience is the best teacher.


That's exactly the kind of attitude that is threatening the future of the sport.

Experience is extremely important, but it's not enough - ask Shannon Best if his experience kept him from being lofted by a squall - and ask Peter Nordby about gusty conditions. There are plenty of experienced guys who ended up as statistics because they didn't do some of the "obvious" things that Rick recommends.

Until we shed this attitude and start doing as much as we can to make the sport safer, the incidents will continue and local authorities will make the decision for us by implementing bans.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:21 pm 
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kjelleren wrote:
Learning takes many forms. Some will not become believers until they have been lofted.


Unfortunately, 1 lofting is enough to get you killed, and 1 death is enough to close your launch - permanently. There are simply too many people in the sport now to continue letting people learn "the hard way" - it's too expensive, both in lives and bans. As a group, we need to take a stand against this kind of behavior before it kills the sport entirely.

If you want to go to some isolated section of the Indian Ocean and learn the hard way, be my guest. But unless you have your own private beach with no other launches nearby that might be impacted, please have some consideration for other riders and what will happen to their access when you're gone. And if you don't want to take a stand, then don't cry when you lose your launch because of one of those "learn the hard way" guys...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:31 pm 
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Tom183 wrote:
DontKiteHere wrote:
What Fo know's is from experience. Experience is the best teacher.


That's exactly the kind of attitude that is threatening the future of the sport.

Experience is extremely important, but it's not enough - ask Shannon Best if his experience kept him from being lofted by a squall - and ask Peter Nordby about gusty conditions. There are plenty of experienced guys who ended up as statistics because they didn't do some of the "obvious" things that Rick recommends.

Until we shed this attitude and start doing as much as we can to make the sport safer, the incidents will continue and local authorities will make the decision for us by implementing bans.


Tom,
Bullshit!
Have you spoken to Shannon about what happened?
Bullshit!
Have you spoken to Peter about what happened?
Bullshit!
Both Knew what they were up against before they went out and made a conscious decision to still try to deal with the conditions.
The simple truth...none of these "obvious things that Rick recommends" could have saved Peter, none of them could help Shannon. When the shit hits the fan, you're fucked.
Now do you keep your cool and deal with the situation or do you panic and become a dear in the headlights?
Well Tom, I believe that you would probably do the later. Read all you want but nothing beats a good ass whooping in the early stages to get you primed for responding to the real shit.
It's people like you who read the incident reports and decide what will work best in thoery that will contribute to our bans!
Why, you ask?
Because when that 60 mph gust hits you on the water what are you going to do? you're going to ditch your gear. Why do I know this? Becuase I have seen many a kiter like you. Helmet, whistle, life vest and a hundred other safety contraptions makes you feel indestructible. When shit hits the fan, you guys are the first ones to pull the cord. It amazes me, you guys even cut the leash, like get this scary thing far, far away from me.
Bullshit!
You are right about one thing; there are a lot more kiters like you out there now than there were three years ago and yes, these kiters will contribute to more bans as their gear comes flying onto the beach, into trees, hotels, cars, bridges....BULLSHIT!

I can't believe I even waist my time with this Bullshit. You guys are hopeless. You probably won't here much more from me and I'm sure you won't miss me just do me a favor and...

Dont Kite Here!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:32 pm 
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My point is that learning only from personal experience and choosing to not use the information available in this forum is a form of ignorance. Ignorance can get you killed. Learn from others. Soak up every bit of information that you can. Then get experience. Then soak up more info.

There will still always be an element of luck, but your chances of kiting without serious incident are greatly improved by knowledge and experience.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:42 pm 
Tom183 wrote:
loeuftok wrote:
tom, tom tom...
decoding Fo is not more difficult than decoding RickI...
read and think about it...
take some time to get it in, analyse it :idea:
and then only post back...

you can be saved from becoming a real PMU...
:thumb:


As far as safety goes, yeah, I am a fanatic - seen too many "experienced" guys doing things that seemed pretty stupid, and almost get killed in the process (some have been - read the incident database for examples of guys like Fo who thought skill alone would keep them safe and didn't). It really made me aware that every single launch we have is just 1 incident away from a ban...

As a group, kiteboarders are making the sport far more dangerous than it needs to be - and until we all try to make it safer, we're going to continue having incidents and getting banned...

A few years ago, when the numbers were a lot smaller, the incidents were isolated, the bans few, and not many riders were affected - but with more people in the sport now, and little/no improvement in safety overall, the bans are coming fast and furious. I don't want people to get hurt or killed, but I'm even more concerned that the sport itself will be banned into oblivion due to simple neglect...

If we don't do something soon, we'll end up with a handful of isolated locations where a few lucky survivors can ride, while the rest of us have to sell our gear or travel thousands of miles just to get in a couple days a year...


Tom,?

I have just about had enough of your mindless speculation.

As a self addmitted fanactic you should take a gaint fucking step back and have a careful look at what your saying, saying I remind you without any knowleged whatsoever as to what kind of kiter I am.

You just talk out of your ass, you claim I'm reckless, that I think skill along will get me bye, you seem to think I am a shore kiter, a dumb ass mofo like most of your dead guy's?! and all of this is based on what?

Nothing but your imagination, you're just an nice person as far as I can tell, a preachy little nice person with a safety fettish, and a data base.

Fuck-off Tom 8)

I have seen the products of professional instruction, I pulled one out of the trees a few days ago.

For your info (add this to the data base) a professional first lesson as far as I'm told on here is comprised of a safety lecture, a rigging demo, and a hour on a weak ass little fucking trainner kite on the fucking beach.

What a dip shit stupid money grubbing piece of shit lesson that is!

Worthless, fucking worthless

Don't tell me ever again what I do, you have no idea,

I do not train anyone any more I limit myself to stopping the dumb fuck teachers aroud here from putting kites in the hands of total newbee's on my fucking beach, if they want to teach they have to get a boat and go offshore.

Do they give me a load of crap, yeah, but after five minutes they say Hmm, you got a point and go away with a clearer picture of what they should be doing instead of what they wanted to do. :wink:

Now as to your motives you see as being pure as the diven snow:

To prevent bans and insure acsess we need to stop the death

To do that you need to make a new kiter self regulated and smart.

You can only do that by letting him learn about his kite from his kite in deep water far from harm.

Ahem not by listening to a fantic with a fettish and a trainner kite on the fucking beach.

Face it Tom you don't know shit about kiting, or me, but you might learn something if you listened more and talked out of your ass less
regards
fokiten

PS. my beach is not a beginner spot, onshore strong winds, live trees in the water, stumps under the water, a cross wind point you can't make unless your exit is flawless, but dumb-ass know it all safety freak teacher types are always dragging down poor defenceless newbees with kite-nite dreams and pockets full of cash, the instructors should be shot, but no guy's like you Tom glorify them.

Guy's like me run them off

Who I ask you is more safety aware? me or them :o

Think it over Tom, locals know best.

cash for talk and trainner kites is a ripp-off

Are there good teaching beaches out there? I doubt it.

Are there good instructors you bet! but five dumb ones for every half ass one and the truly good ones are rare.

Safety freaks are a dime a dozen however

Think before you speak again Tom


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:31 pm 
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Fo,
gosh you get angry. Some of what you are saying resonates with me, but much seems like you just love a good scrap. Somebody once said the best way to defeat an opponent is to get them mad. Stops the brain from working right. Get that rightous indignation going. How dare you question me? Dialogue is good. Dogma is bad. Thinking is good. Acting without thinking is ... just a bad idea for a kiter.

I seem to remember a picture of you stuck in one of those trees. Must have been part of that off shore thrashing deal. My guess is that you are trying to pass on some of the wisdom gained from your own experience. Rick is trying to pass on the experience of others. You guys are like peas in a pod. Identical twins. Maybe the yin and yang of the same guy. Afterall, who knows who you really are? Grin.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:56 pm 
kjelleren wrote:
Fo,
gosh you get angry. Some of what you are saying resonates with me, but much seems like you just love a good scrap. Somebody once said the best way to defeat an opponent is to get them mad. Stops the brain from working right. Get that rightous indignation going. How dare you question me? Dialogue is good. Dogma is bad. Thinking is good. Acting without thinking is ... just a bad idea for a kiter.

I seem to remember a picture of you stuck in one of those trees. Must have been part of that off shore thrashing deal. My guess is that you are trying to pass on some of the wisdom gained from your own experience. Rick is trying to pass on the experience of others. You guys are like peas in a pod. Identical twins. Maybe the yin and yang of the same guy. Afterall, who knows who you really are? Grin.


Kj,

My tone may sound harsh but I assure you I spend a lot of time laughing at the obsurdity of my detrackter's posts.

On the Rick thing, the info he gets is always second hand to start with, aside from the weather warnning posts his other stuff is based on pure speculation,

Second hand info transformed by speculation adds up to?

Yeah, I believe but have no use for his weather stuff, I've been evaluating and observing the weather here for 24 years.

The kite handling invention stuff rick dreams up just pisses me off period.
The list so long and so lame it sickens me to review it.

That was not me in the tree it was a local extemeo jumping through it and or over it, he's our biggest safety violator.

But he kites pretty good.

As to when you get your whoop trainning, that would be on the beach according to Tom 183's pro kite instruction plan, go figure?

Ricks only defence to me is to say I'm vulger, I think his dream world is vulger, no biggy.

I'd rather be vulger than living in a dream world, where speculation turns into facts and is spewed in lagubrious wads of passive language ever twisting back to say your results may vary...

cracks me up really
Although my joy is oft expressed through rants I live free and happy in a fantasic world of fun
fokiten


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:18 pm 
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DontKiteHere wrote:
PS. my beach is not a beginner spot, onshore strong winds, live trees in the water, stumps under the water, a cross wind point you can't make unless your exit is flawless, but dumb-ass know it all safety freak teacher types are always dragging down poor defenceless newbees with kite-nite dreams and pockets full of cash, the instructors should be shot, but no guy's like you Tom glorify them.


Hard to believe but actually I agree with you 100% on this one - anybody teaching at a location like that really should be shot. Find out who it is, they should be reported to the IKO and their certification pulled.



DontKiteHere wrote:
The simple truth...none of these "obvious things that Rick recommends" could have saved Peter, none of them could help Shannon.


From the Kiteboarding Safety Guidelines (downsizing the font 'cause I know you've read it already):

6. BE AWARE OF THE WEATHER. Is the forecast and current weather acceptable, free of pending storm clouds and excessive gusty winds? Color radar can sometimes give a clue as to violent storm/gust potential. Are seas and wind condition within your experience, ability and appropriate for your gear? New kiters should practice in lighter, side or side onshore winds. Onshore winds have a much higher injury rate even among experienced riders and should be avoided. Offshore winds should be avoided in the absence of a chase boat. If storm clouds are moving in, land and thoroughly disable your kite well in advance of any change in wind or temperature, if necessary depower your kite while still away from shore. Lightning can strike many miles ahead of storm clouds. Learn about unstable weather in your area and work to avoid squalls and storms through TV, radio and Internet information. Consider organizing an alert air horn and flag signal for your launch as a warning to riders of pending unstable weather.



Shannon was on the water alone and wasn't watching the weather - squall line came up behind and slammed him. Seems like Rick's recommendation would have helped...




4. USE A KITE LEASH, QUICK RELEASE, HELMET, IMPACT VEST and other reasonable safety gear. Make sure you have proper safety equipment, such as a tested, well maintained kite depowering leash securely attached to your body, a good well fitting helmet, impact vest, gloves, whistle and hook knife. Most kiteboarding fatalities involve head injury. A good helmet for kiteboarding, MAY aid in reducing injury and improve the chance of survival in many but not necessarily all impacts. A helmet is NO excuse to kiteboard carelessly. Regularly test and maintain a reliable chicken loop or kite depowering release. Relying upon manual unhooking alone to release your bar is UNRELIABLE based upon the accident experience. The rider needs to understand and accept that in an emergency, this quick release MAY NOT be accessible or function correctly in the critical seconds of the emergency. It is up to the rider to avoid the emergency in the first place and to aid proper function of the release through practice and maintenance.

1. USE GOOD LAUNCH AREAS. Make sure your launch is open, FREE OF DOWNWIND BYSTANDERS, hard objects, nearby power lines, buildings and walls, etc. within at least 300 ft. (100 m), and preferably more particularly in higher wind. Too many riders have slammed into walls, parked cars, trees with better launches not so far away at all. Some riders have needed in excess of 600 ft. (200 m), to regain control in violent dragging or loftings in higher winds. Avoid kiteboarding near airports and in low flight path areas, complaints have led to restricted access in some areas. Never fly your kite in the path of low aircraft in flight, moving your kite low to the water at the first indication of inbound aircraft.


Cutting corners or picking and choosing safe kiteboarding practices can seriously reduce the rider’s factor of safety and increase the odds of an accident.



Peter Nordby was wearing a vest but unfortunately no helmet - died due to head injuries. He got the head injuries by launching and riding less than 100ft from a parking lot in winds of 13mph gusting to 35mph...


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