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 Post subject: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:54 pm 
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Thinking about building a board with channels, thought I would start a discussion here...
Anyone tried it?
Parallel or toed-in?
...just curious...
:?:


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 Post subject: Re: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:16 am 
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Interesting theme! I have a question too.
Could anyone who has rode any of the channeled boards give any feedback on the differences between ordinary concaved TT and channeled one.
Is it even necessary to use fins with channeled board.

I was very intriged by this design, specially with Nobile's, whos shape could be achieved by laminating thin core layers pressed to a template.
But I see a lot of precise work of either upgrade your old rocker table or making a new one. And than, a new question: Could you use one rocker table for different sizes, could you do the setupable rocker table with channeled shape? Either way, a lot of work. Is it worth it? You tell me!

IMO Nobile and Mark Shinn was/is the leading TT board developers. Last year a lot of companyes made channeled boards and they looked, they could really make a difference, but I am not so sure anymore if it's worth the extra effort, although it would be cool.
Last year Nobile had only a couple of budget boards with the normal shape, others were channeled. I realy thought, the development is going this way. Than Mark Shinn left Nobile and wen't on his own. None of his board were channeled. WTF?
And this year, according to Nobile, their best board is 2HD, without channels, 70% flat surface in the middle,...WTF again. Something similar I did with my last board which was stollen after 1 hour of riding, but liked it alot (in general rocker and concave progress in such a ratio, that when you put it on a flat surface, it apears, that most of the board is laying flat, but that's just an ilusion).

In general I heard positive critics about 50fifty, but most of Nobile riders are satisfyed with their boards, so I still do not know if channels make any difference worth mentioning.
I never rode an industrial made board, but I would definitively trie one of those Nobile's 3D shaped.

Looking forward to hearing your opinions on this subject.

BR,
Zob


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 Post subject: Re: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Take a look at Wakeboards if you want to see channels, these guys wrote the book on them and have decades of designing boards with minimal fin area that still retain grip. Some of the newer wakestyle boards are now beginning to mimic this trend for the same reason and we'll increasingly see less fin and more channel in certain segments of the kiteboarding market as time progresses.


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 Post subject: Re: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:30 pm 
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if you are not faced with fin constraints though,(i.e. NOT doing sliders and stuff), then fins of the appropriate size should give same grip for less drag, or, more grip for same drag. amirite?

i.e. on a freeride/freestyle board channels are just cool-looking ?

personally over the years i have ridden finless boards(i.e. i took the fins of my board-du-jour) with all sorts of different bottom shapes and didn't have any "grip" problems when adapting to any of them.

N.B. i am not saying channels are useless. just i think they are an appropriate solution for wake/park but not other disciplines


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 Post subject: Re: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:55 pm 
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I guess a board with channels would be much more stiffer than regular board. So another thing to keep in mind.


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 Post subject: Re: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:42 pm 
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I have been building boards for about 7 years and my experience is that if carefull designing and building a flat bottom finned board you can get all the performance you want and need, without the complications of single or multiple concaves, cannels, grooves, dimples or pimples!


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 Post subject: Re: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:28 pm 
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Thanks for the thoughts....
I used to windsurf a bit and riding windsurfers with channels I liked how they helped with grip to a point, then released the grip smoothly if you wanted to slide the tail out -like "spinning out" but in intentional maneuvers, jibes, on a wave, etc.
With a kiteboard I also like this kind of move (kind of a standard part of the kiting feeling...),
and ride in (too) shallow water sometimes also....
My latest board has a great balance for transitioning from carve to slide and back, this is a succeessful board for me, but I still want to experiment on the next one.
So just thought I'd try one with channels to use with little fins ( & sometimes none).
I am curious about the methods people have used to shape the channels....

------
& @ zob:
My idea is to use wood strip core as usual.
The kind of channels I want is at the tips, for grip, with a flat or concave between the feet as usual.
I thought of 2 ways to get parallel channels in the core without a new table or too much extra trouble:

1. cut a taper into the ends of strips of the core that will become the channel(s) before gluing the entire core together. Glue the core together, sand a little to blend in the flat to channel transition, then put it on rocker table and laminate deck. Take it off table and glass the bottom as a second stage. It would be a 2 shot process, but the advantage is no need for a new complicated mold or table.

2. Glue up strip core as usual, but before putting it on rocker table use a router to route channels into the core. Glass in 2 stages as in (1.)

3. glue up and shape strip core but only glue the central part between feet so the ends of the strips are not attached to each other. Place wedges or blocks under tips of channeled areas on table to force them up at ends. Glass in 2 stages, the ends of the strips get glued together at the same time the lamination is done... Could work but maybe messier than 1 or 2....

Just some ideas :idea:


Attachments:
channels from flat table.PNG
channels from flat table.PNG [ 12.74 KIB | Viewed 1701 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:19 pm 
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When I was trying out some designs, I thought about how to easily create some channels for a DIY board at home, without any special tools.

For this first design, my approach was to use glued wood strips, and place wedges underneath the board while gluing them, and then laminate it in 2 steps (similar to steps n.3).
Attachment:
TT001_V4.jpg
TT001_V4.jpg [ 102.23 KIB | Viewed 1645 times ]


Latter on, I came up with type of design, where I would arrange 3 marine ply planks, 2 x 4mm thick and 1 x 3mm thick.
I would cut them to a desired width and glue them back together. But during this process, 2 of the strips on the bottom would be trimmed, in order to leave 2 channels, as can be seen on the next images, marked by the blue strips. The channels will be in the central region of the board.
(Disregard the vertical line. The wooden strips will go from one end to the other of the board.)
Attachment:
TT002_V1_frente.JPG
TT002_V1_frente.JPG [ 15.23 KIB | Viewed 1645 times ]

Attachment:
TT002_V1_fundo.JPG
TT002_V1_fundo.JPG [ 38.18 KIB | Viewed 1645 times ]

Another main feature of this approach is the possibility to have a multi-thickness board without having to sand it, with 3mm on the tips, then 7mm and finally 11mm beneath the feet area.

What do you guys think about this?


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 Post subject: Re: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:30 pm 
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To sum up some of my thoughts and open some new questions:

:?: How deep are the channels on factory boards? How deep would you do them?
:!: I think using stripes with the technique BWD suggested would be better than duartemv's with ply.
Why? Looking at duartemv's last drawings (bottom right on TT001_V4.jpg):
if your tip thickness is 8 mm, than your chanel would be max. 4 mm deep (according to the drawing)? Is it worth doing it?
Another issue is, construction strenght. If you will cut the ply with a jig saw, you will have at least 1mm gap and it would probably be a problem even without that gap, because the closer you come to the tip, less bonding surface there is, and the forces are greater.
And BWD would have the same problem. OK, you have more meat to work with. I do not know what your methods for thining the tip are (I guess hand planing). So I guess you would have a lot of problems shaping the tips out.
I think using 2 thicker stripes per channel is the way to go, to get the shape out or at least bonding some extra on the ends.
Attachment:
File comment: My quick sketch
scan0001.jpg
scan0001.jpg [ 53.86 KIB | Viewed 1572 times ]


:?: Do you do any poured epoxy or ABS rails? How would you do this in the channel area?
Just a few thoughts :cool2:


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 Post subject: Re: ? TT Channels
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:09 pm 
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method 2 would be the easiest to do poured rails I think.
I would make a normal strip blank with poured rails and use a router on a sled jg to cut the channels, before putting it on the table. Strips around the channel edges could be special or reinforced as needed...


Attachments:
cuting channel.JPG
cuting channel.JPG [ 45.95 KIB | Viewed 1568 times ]
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