Pre-project questions.

[ewing]

I've been reading this and another board building forum over the last week or so.

I'd like to build a few boards this winter/spring before the summer kiting season hits. I'd like to build 2 or 3 different sizes and shapes to play with. I'd also like to do this as inexpensively as reasonably can be done.

One bit of advice I had on another forum was "If you go straight to a tapered tipped board with2 sheets pressed together with a top and bottom layers of triaxle fibreglass you will jump straight over a whole bunch of learning by trial and error that others have done before you."

Core material I'm considering: 6mm mahogany marine plywood - simply because it's available locally. If this is a terrible choice, I'm open to suggestions.

Which weight of cloth would you recommend? Same cloth for laminating between core layers as outside? Or strips of a different material? Or is it just more trial & error than anything? Any online sources in Canada/USA for inexpensive material?

Which resin(s) would you recommend? I was told to try a slower hardener to allow for longer working time - makes sense to me. Same resin for laminating layers together as glassing the outside? Online sources?

I've read several threads with builds adding poured polyurethane rails to edges before glassing. Is this really necessary/ideal? Why? I ask this most basic question as the marine plywood board I used last summer is literally just rockered plywood, one layer, w/ some sort of marine varnish over it, some proper footpads/straps & cheap plastic fins that work just fine. Virtually anything I build will be more technical and likely better than this. Anyways, from the looks of things it appears the process is to laminate both layers together, cut out a rail channel w/ the excess board material as a mould, use some masking tape or something for the bottom of the mould ?? pour the rails, sand them into shape, then glass the top/bottom out to the edges of the pu rails - but not wrapped around them, correct? Leaving "raw" unglassed pu rails around the outer edges of the board. Correct me if I'm wrong on what gets glassed and what doesn't. I've never done this before, but I'm willing to learn all I can over the next few weeks or so before I start gathering materials and trying things out for myself. If I should definitely go through the effort of pouring rails, then I'll make the effort.. if it doesn't add much value to the end product for the time & effort, well, then I might not bother.

Inserts for footpads/fins - should they be through both layers? Or only the top layer for the foot straps? (with the bottom of the insert at the bottom of the top layer, above whatever fibre/resin I use to laminate layers together.) Fin inserts would likely be far enough to the outer edges the they can only go through the bottom layer of marine ply. Any recommendations for inserts? Online sources?

As for rocker, I'm thinking of using an ultra simple setup to laminate the top/bottom together with weight in the middle to achieve a rockered tip/tail - water jugs or something similar. Not so sure I'll get into any sort of concave bottom channels… but maybe via planing/sanding as necessary. Thoughts/input appreciated, but I'm kinda thinking of keeping it very simple for the first couple projects and then building on my building from there.

Glassing - I'm not about to go through the expense of building a vacuum bag setup (I don't think..) as it seems to be overkill for home build #1. I was told at a fibreglass shop that I should be able to do things by hand, but that I'd likely end up with a bit more resin & thus a heavier end product vs. vacuum bagging. I'm willing to give it a go by hand and see how well I can press the resin through the cloth and get things to set up w/o a vacuum bag setup. Any and all pointers are greatly appreciated.

Footpads/straps & fins - recommendations for inexpensive ones?

Trying to keep costs under control to make this economically viable.. local sources for fibreglass & resin seemed quite expensive to me and I'm sure I can find kits online at a lower cost. I live a short drive from the American border and often buy things online from the USA and pick them up across the border. Chances are I'll be able to order a lot of supplies online from the states for cheap and make this a viable project vs. something that costs as much or more than buying a quality 2nd hand board.

I'm sure I'll think of more questions to ask later. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to respond to these ones so far!

[Bigdog]

Yes lots of questions and good ones too .

We all have been down that road. Suggest you look at the boardbuilders forum here and I think most questions you have are there.
I am in the great white north as well in ontario and may be able to help you with suppliers for materials

Cheers
Stan

http://windego.ca

[downunder]

I've read several threads with builds adding poured polyurethane rails to edges before glassing. Is this really necessary/ideal? Why?

This is a looong post mate and will leave the rest at peace:)

What I do is what others are doing with the ABS strips (expensive). I'm adding a premade PU rails into the routed channel. Rails are needed, me thinks, coz of wood protection. Not so much about water but more about dropping the board while handling, reef, etc.

I did pour my first few boards but it's messy, need a perfect level and PU will go off very fast after opening. PU expands meaning a lot of sanding. Epoxy is rigid, can't survive drop of the board from ie 1m.

In any case my first board is what I'm still riding and it's 2x 5mm plywood with 200g biax cloth on both sides. The inserts were not SS and 4years later they are starting to go off

You can see the rails in here and myself assembling it:

http://shop.shinai.co/?product=pu-board-rails

I've got inserts listed here as well but shipping to the US is expensive. Either way, get the proper SS inserts, not something hand made (wasting time and effort making it).

D.

PS

Oh, and a vac table is cheap as chips, one piece of 5mm perspex and an old fridge compressor. You need some sort of equal compression for a decent results.

[Bigdog]

Some stuff I use and like after many iterations making windsurfers from 1983 till 1999 and kiteboards and snowboards since.

Resin Reseach epoxy.
Corecell foam. Wood not so much ...
22oz triaxial fiberglass. Carbon sometimes...
6 oz texalium...
snowboard inserts

I do not like:

sanding
paint of any kind

Stan

[plummet]

Anwers to some of your questions.

Use epoxy resin not polyester. Yes its expensive. 4ltr pack should make several boards

Fibreglass layers on the outside. Glass gets its stiffness through sandwich effect (top and bottom layers being further apart. The further apart the layers the better the stiffening effect.
So... glass on the outer layers.

600grm triaxle is a good place to start.

You don't have to vac bag. But you will end up with a heavier board. It could be 1kg or more heavier. Theres a lot of resin in a kiteboard.

A mechanical press is another way to do it. press both sides at the same time. No need to vacuum it still squeazes out resin.

simple press that weighs the center can sometimes end up with a board that does not have a constant rocker. The center can bend where the weights are and the tips remain straight. Its not the best rocker line. But it will still work. yourl loose some efficiency.

Plastic, pu, urethane, resin rails are not a necessity. You can install them if you feel the benefit or leave them out. I personally do not see an extensive advantage in rails for a home made board. For a production board sold to the masses. Yes. For a board you make youself. No.

[downunder]

Heh,

the mechanical press is not the cheapest option. I've picked all perspex at recycling depot for free and a fridge compressor was a beer slab:)
The beauty of perspex is ANY rocker or concave, with only 2 clamps and a metal rod under some bigger wood plank (my plank is actually a board template). All standing on empty milk trays (stolen from a local shop hahaha).

Than storage: I dissemble all and store behind the door:)

But all of this is a personal preference, no 2 builder's will agree on everything ))) It's an art which I've found that makes me happy! Love sanding, love seeing wood grain, and absolutely love my rails!

Enjoy in whatever works for you! If you give all your heart the results will come with ease!

PS
The epoxy from Entropy Super Sap CLR is cheaper than West systems, no smell which is awesome, 30mins or more pot life and cured in 4 hrs. Very very happy with it. Would not go back to WS.
They claim it's enviro. friendly which is a big +.

[plummet]

Yep we each roll to the beat of our own drum... Which I guess Is why we build.

I like the mechanical press because it doesn't fail and you can press more complex shapes than what vac alone allows.

But do what is easiest for you.

[tkettlepoint]

I don't need to chime in to much here... the boys have covered most of it... I have both a heated press and a vacuum table for boards.

Just starting out vacuum press is all you need with a nice rocker table.

I paint but have a paint booth. Starting to do it surf board way paint before resin not after.
Have looked into topsheets but cost is a lot for them, would cost around 130 a board if you order 25-50 sets of them ( all the same)

resin research is the resin I like for the vacuum press, been playing with https://entropyresins.com/ to go a little greener

good luck and if I can help with any info just let me know.. And I am sure if I can't the other here can, Combine there is a lot of years of board building here
Terrie
www.jellyfishboards.com

[sijandy]

Have looked into topsheets but cost is a lot for them, would cost around 130 a board if you order 25-50 sets of them ( all the same)

Wow - that goes some way to explaining the high prices of production tt's. So what's the cost if you only order one?? The latest ss tt, the widowmaker is over $1200!

[tkettlepoint]

Sijandy when I priced them it was from the same place SS gets theirs done. along with many others here in North America... for small run it was 75 bucks a side. Hell with the price of boards for 2015 I might be able to sell more Custom TT.

TT cost $150 top and bottom sheet
$ 20-25 inserts depends on how many
$ 40-50 core
$ 30-40 resin
$ 30-120 depends on what you use from triax to carbon
$ 10 ABS rails
$ 30-60 fins
$ 75-200 pads and straps and handle
total $ 385-650 just for the cost of material for complete board no labour
so if you double it $770 - $1300 with labour included just to make money

A few years ago we were selling tt with no problem , in the last couple of years people are buying last years model brand new for $499 complete. I can't make them for that and still put food on the table.

my buddy has a 72" printer that I can use to do disub if I want too but the inks and the product would cost 40-55 a side. You have to use it everyday to make the cost go down because you have to clean the machine when done and then the inks might dry out on you.

So bottom line is we do it for the love of it and just too see people faces

terrie
www.jellyfishboards.com