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Finding the right trim

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Dr_Rosen
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Finding the right trim

Postby Dr_Rosen » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:24 pm

Okay, please advice you advanced riders :D

Just bought new kites. Some say to use the outer knots on rear lines or the kite will oversheet. Other say just use the middle knots. So my question is: when you get a new kite a want to check the trim/line lenghts etc. once and for all, how is this done????
Oversheeting?.....what is that?

So you experienced riders: How do you check if line lengths etc. are as they should be??

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tautologies
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Postby tautologies » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:54 pm

I can see and feel it on the kite.

General heuristic all lines the same length...then I test the kite. If I feel I don;t have enough power, I shorten the backlines...if I feel the kite stalling, I lenghten them.

Many of the newer kite, you can't see very well until after you've ridden them for a short while if the kite is oversheeted.

I do think one of the biggest beginner mistakes when the kite is oversheeted it to pull on the bar...if the kite starts backing up..push out and turn the kite...don't pull in on the bar....

Depending on what I am doing that day, I like to have full power when I am an inch or two from fully pulled in on the bar.

If I am unhooking then pull power should be when the bar is fully sheeted in.


I don;t think there are any rules for when and how the knots should be, it is different from company to company....

a.

Dr_Rosen
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Postby Dr_Rosen » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:05 pm

tautologies wrote:...if I feel the kite stalling, I lenghten them.
STALLING? HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?

Many of the newer kite, you can't see very well until after you've ridden them for a short while if the kite is oversheeted. BUT HOW DO YOU SEE IT WHEN YOU SEE IT?

I don;t think there are any rules for when and how the knots should be, it is different from company to company.... I KNOW, THAT'S WHY IT IS A BIT CONFUSING WITH THE TRIM

a.

Clew In
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Postby Clew In » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:13 am

Hey,

I found the right trim and I married her.

Clew In

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aahi
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Postby aahi » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:27 am

the way I do it is, park your kite at the zenith (with plenty of room, be safe) preferably in light winds, and pull your bar all the way in. If your kite starts to fall back (downwind of you) then it is oversheeted, lengthen the back lines little by little until it stops. you should be able to pull in on your bar all the way and the kite stay above you. as taut said, some people like full power higher up on their line and they compensate for it during flying by sheeting out, especially on upstrokes..

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Klaus (c:E
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Postby Klaus (c:E » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:35 am

Visit a Kite School!

I always start underpowered because You can easily grab the steering leader lines to gain control but it´s difficult to gain control over an oversheeted kite.

P.S. Oversheeted = angle of attac too high = front lines too long OR backlines too short. :bye:

Sea You: Klaus (c:E

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tautologies
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Postby tautologies » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:59 am

Dr_Rosen wrote:
tautologies wrote:...if I feel the kite stalling, I lenghten them.
STALLING? HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?

Many of the newer kite, you can't see very well until after you've ridden them for a short while if the kite is oversheeted. BUT HOW DO YOU SEE IT WHEN YOU SEE IT?

I don;t think there are any rules for when and how the knots should be, it is different from company to company.... I KNOW, THAT'S WHY IT IS A BIT CONFUSING WITH THE TRIM

a.
Stalling, some kites will fall a little back in the window...some kites will only loose of their power...that you can only feel. Sometimes it is fairly subtle too. Might require some training, but if you are know what you are looking for it might be easier :-)


Oversheeting..on older kites you would see the wingtips bend in a little, on bows and SLE this is not as prevalent, and way more subtle, but there usually is a slightly different shape on the canopy. If you oversheet, the kite will in anycase loose power.

I think especially on newer kites it is a function of feeling and vision.

Try taking the kite out, in as steady wind, and relatively low wind..so you can without problems sheet in fully. Ride you board straight, and try to to find the point where the kite pulls the most. Sheet in gradually, hold...sheet in...give the kite a few seconds on each setting...you'll feel it. Also look at the kite while you are riding like this to see if it surges in the window...if it falls back a little and you feel like you are loosing power you might be slightly oversheeted...the more pronounced these effects become the more adjustment you should try.

If the kite is way oversheeted you definitely notice it.

I know some of the Helixes came with a "wrong" setting on the backlines causing the kite to loose a little power if you sheet in fully making it slightly oversheeted..in light winds this effects is more pronounced. I like it when it is fully powered an inch from the bar, and I've almost always ridden my bar like that...it gives you the option to use oversheeting while riding...there is another thread for that...

anyhoo...
a.

surfingwithkites
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Postby surfingwithkites » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:17 pm

"perfect trim" depends on your riding style and kite type.

Basically a perfect trim is what the kite would fly best at on a fixed set up. It means the kite is "square" and flies with the best balance of power, turning, and speed through the window. It is something you learn to see and feel. Different knots are just a guideline but the perfect trim point should be easily within the stock set up for any kite. If it isn't then the kite designers screwed up big time.

For hooked in bow type kites most riders want "perfect trim" to be set a couple inches from the bar being pulled in all the way. On most bows this means kites will oversheet and fly backwards if pulled in further.

For unhooked riding you want the kite trimmed so that when you unhook and the chicken loop (if you have one) jams against the bar the kite flies at its best. This means that with a chicken loop you will either be flying underpowered most of the time (unless you fly with the bar pulled all the way in which is not too comfortable) or you will be messing with the depower strap every time you unhook or hook back in. Thus the fixed line theory or set it and forget it and just fly the kite.

The real important question is how well does your kite fly in perfect trim? That is the true limit of the kites design and the reason some people still stick with advanced C shapes and ride fixed or pulley bar set ups.

Fly a lot of kites and kite a lot. It's the only way to learn.

Dr_Rosen
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Postby Dr_Rosen » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:12 pm

Took my Era bar today and measured the line lengths in my garden. Full power on the depower strap. Bar pulled all the way in. Rear lines attached to the middle knot.

When set this way, the front lines and rear lines seem to be exactly the same length! I of course do not know if they are supposed to be that on the standard setting, but it seems logical if it is the case??

Took my SB2 bar and did the same stunt. Also on that bar the lines are all exactly the same length in that setting. But on the Cabrinha the "knot choices" are on the bridle lines not the rear lines.

Any comments to this in my search for the right set-up?
Anyway I guess I found out that I can then use my SB2 bar on my Era right?? (Which was my main purpose as I got the very small bar with my Era 10 m2)

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Postby WindRyder » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:27 pm

I ride the 10M and 8M Eras. I use the 45cm Best bar with the kites. I just happen to like that bar. Anway, I added a pigtail to the back lines to lengthen them. I also have my power strap slightly depowered, and the kites fly perfectly. Before I added the pigtails to the back, the kite would fly backwards when sheeted all the way in. I found this especially true with the 12M. The 10M and 8M not so much. Absolutely love the kites!!!!


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