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be careful,be very careful.

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fokiten

Postby fokiten » Wed Nov 20, 2002 7:19 pm

Be careful what you wish for!
I can not help but notice there is a prominent willingness to attach one’s self to every safety thread on this site. How wonderful to indorse safety. There are people who collect gore, itemize injury, project statistical probability for catastrophic injury per hour kited. How wonderful to indorse safety. How lame not to recognize the source. Be careful what you wish for!
Suppose all you safety endorsers get your chance to embrace your fondest wish and are forced to use all the safety gear, forced to only kite in steady safety approved wind, forced to wear a wrist leash, forced to not have a board leash, forced to launch only in designated safety approved areas, with safety approved launch methods. One that comes to mind, and billed as safety approved, tweaks my sensibilities and sends shivers up my spine, trim loop knotted round the bar, wrong way wind arrow, bushes and high rise buildings down wind, wrist leash firmly in place etc. etc. Posted as recommended, safety approved. Be very careful what you wish for. Safety police, safety rules, safety gurus up your ass.
Knock safety no, only gurus, but I am a kite-boarder, with a taste for making my own rules. After all it’s my ass, I respect my fellow man and always tell them; “Look I’m going to launch this kite and any thing could happen, so if you stand over here till I get it in the air you will be safe.â€

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Postby Protos » Wed Nov 20, 2002 9:56 pm

I can never quite get a bead on what you're saying, fokiten. Are you simply playing the Devil's advocate?

If it weren't for all the postings about other people's mishaps, and the lessons learned from them, there would be alot more accidents out there. I, for one really appreciate what Rick I. has done to keep us all informend about potential risks, and things to avoid.

Yes, we are "extreme" sport kiters, and of course we'd be much safer sitting home on the couch. But to always hear about accidents,and things to avoid certainly helps keep these things in mind as I'm all amped up on the beach just looking to get out on the water.

The "safety police", as you mention WILL come down hard on us as a whole if there is a continuing problem with self-induced (since you say we have only ourselves to blame) injuries/property damage, etc.

I wear a PFD, a quick-release chickenloop (Wipika Throttle bar) & a wrist leash on an ARC (that also has a cotter pin quick-release in case things go way wrong).

The recent posting about a guy launching his kite with the lines crossed up, and getting slammed into a nearby van. OK, so this guy knows the risks before even starting the sport, but the guy who parked his van at the beach didn't sign up for that. And I'm sure the van owner's lawyer has VERY little sympathy for the cowboy ethic of extreme sports participants.


Leash it before you launch it.

fokiten

Postby fokiten » Wed Nov 20, 2002 10:53 pm

Hi protos, I also have trouble getting a handle on what i am saying, For one thing i have contacted rick I and told him he has my suport. On the other hand i also explained that I do not approve of kite promotion as it is a monster sport and people die trying to learn it. My point is kiting is dangerious it will never be safe. Furthermore by working the saftey angle thru intruction for cash more
people who would never kite but think it's now safe will certainly die. So I say let us freaks take our chances, and do not suck in the innocent, and do not expound safe methods for a unsafe sport,its not ethical. there is no safety in this sport at all. Go ahead lets here one safe method on any part of this sport? there are none never will be.I kite,I work hard to be safe,but i do not like to see the average non extreame personallity be lured in by talk of saftey. And sooner or later the authoritys are going to focus one the overidng statistic in rickI log ie. every injury involved a kite. When that happens we are done. I lov kiting I have my own rules i resent being told how to be safe by anybody that dose it by counting lives lost and lives ruined but refuses to see the forest yet advises the innocent how to plant their tree.I walk the line i love kiting but do not aprove of it for the less than extreme. tic toc tic toc be careful who you support. ps I am taking my stand out of concern for my kite freedom and the innocent.
If you got a problem with that lets hear a argument thatmakes better sence, and not some flame on me. put up or shut up I amickin to my story till somone comes up with a better one. fokiten

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Postby Protos » Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:20 pm

Kiting will never be safe?

Sure, not 100%. But gear has gotten better just over the last couple of years. Snapshackle & chickenloop Q-releases, etc.

Whenever someone asks me about starting kiting I tell them to take a lesson #1. Information is your friend. #2 I tell them that alot of people get killed/injured doing it, seriously. Non "extreme" people will take a lesson, feel the power of the kite, wet their pants and go home. People like you and me, grab that bar for the first time and feel the Power :smile: & are hooked.

Of course then there's the 20-something year old who is up for anything, this thing can't possibly be any more radical than Mr. Young Dude Extreme (that used to be me, but I only had windsuffering back then, so no harm done...). These folks are the ones most in need of instruction & knowledge about what could possibly go wrong. It makes me cringe to see some new extreme dude (young or old) launching his kite, losing his sh!t and seeing his kite head towards the parking lot (no leash) making my chances of kiting there less likely due to his incompetance.

I wasn't flaming you, I was posting an opposing point of view, and also wanted to express my admiration for the work Rick has done in trying to help us all out. The less bozos out there the better.

fokiten

Postby fokiten » Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:25 pm

for some reason the page was doing weird stuff so i could not easily edit. Cowboy ethic nessesary for saftey you can either take charge of the kite and hang with it or your ricks, I do support collecting data, I do not support using it to prommote kiteing by saying we got it now, the problems were this,this and this its backward sick. Ok flamers yeah I support and do not support.
In the end the collection of data will support the ban. Just let it be what it is an extreme sport for a select few. thats what im saying.

fokiten

Postby fokiten » Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:35 pm

Protos I saw no flame at all in your post thank you for your input That last line was for tobys benifit, he has enough trouble from me, without the replys i tend to inspire.

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Postby Guest » Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:52 pm

hey fokiten, don't worry about me!
we fixed everything and will in the future, so let's flame it !!! :wink:
no, don't, just kidding...

I'm got confused by you saying that the datas will lead to more bans.
This could be a point, but I'm not so sure about it.
At least I know it will decrease the accidents, because this way we can learn from the mistakes of others, which was in the history and nowadays always the way to go.
But I guess you mean all theses data in the wrong hands could mean bans since the wrong person can say: "here is the proof, dangerous sport, so let's ban it".
Do you mean something like this?



Just let me take the time and honor Rick for his work, I know that this stuff takes a lot of time and we should all be thankful for him doing this for US !!!
And I'm sure it is a big help for our community.

Thx
Toby

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Postby sq225917 » Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:13 am

i'm with f-boy on this one.


the number of absolute liability lame asses we get on our local beach is untrue. sure everyone has a right to try it.

i just have a problem with the way its advertised as a recreation, safe pastime. its so not the case.

i don't know how things are around the world, but i bet it gets baned in areas of the us first on a large scale.

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Postby kitesurfingdude » Thu Nov 21, 2002 2:04 am

my moto is "KNOW YOUR LIMITS AND BREAK THEM"
it`s a risk i`m taking to make my day and give me an incredible buzz....so the sport will never be safe but give it a few years and we will have depower systems 10times better than we have now....

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Postby RickI » Thu Nov 21, 2002 2:25 am

I am confused by this thread as I think more than a few people may be as well. There are criticisms, against myself and others with similar intent. The basis for the complaints is not clear however and accuracy in this seems to be optional. It may be just an attempt to stir the pot and if so, I regret wasting everyone's time (and my own), with this response. More importantly if you have something to contribute that builds something aside from confusion have at it, please.

The point seems to have something to do with not sharing information or learning from one another's experiences, forcing people to do things and promoting this sport as safe. I am lost as to where the valid basis of any of this arises from. I can remember as I am sure many other riders can when not so long ago no one really thought much about riding in or around squalls, using kite leashes that actually might work, protecting your ribs with an impact vest and your head with a helmet, preflighting carefully, etc., etc. Because people have been injured and killed and most importantly because we have tried to understand what happened and have talked about it, things evolve, hopefully improve and the sport moves on. The same thing happened in most extreme sports that you could name. What makes kiteboarding different in this regard? Are all the ideas final, the best and infallible, of course not. To conclude that has been stated or even implied is incorrect and naive. We are talking and experimenting and in that way we all are moving this sport forward.

fokiten, if you don't want to talk about things that might protect your privilege to kiteboard, avoid restrictions and bans through reduced incidents and accidents through improved procedures, don't, it is that simple. I know what it is like to kiteboard in ignorance and an information vacuum. It almost killed me two years ago and kept me wondering constantly for a few months when the next slam would come until things started to make a bit of sense about how to possibly avoid it. Once they started to make sense we talked about it compared ideas and hopefully the sport improved a bit. You may want to ride in ignorance and an information vacuum, but I don't. So, if censoring information and hard won experience is your thing, have at it. Perhaps others want to shred and try to stay healthy as well and want to exchange ideas in order to try to do just that.

For the record, I do not feel that kiteboarding is "safe." I routinely say that it is the most dangerous thing that I do out of several extreme sports.

I do not promote kiteboarding and I make no income of any kind from it. I particularly don't promote kiteboarding as a "safe" sport. I try to help people that are going to do it anyway and are doing it already, to try to do it a bit safer, maybe, as there are NO assurances on safety. There can't be, not at this time. People are going to continue to flood into this sport without any encouragement or discouragement from me. Realizing that, we can ignore it, as I think you advocate or we can try to help all these people get into the sport that are in it anyway at this point, without a lot of avoidable accidents, incidents, restrictions and bans. If we go hands off, as has happened in may areas these negatives may well happen. No real assurance of success in this effort but at least we are trying, at least some of us are.

No one is required or "forced" to do "anything." The word "choice" appears regularly in posts. The use of the word "force" in this thread appears to be grossly inaccurate and is quite weak. Unless you want to advocate forcing riders to do things as I do not.

So aside from advocating poor to no communication on safer ways to ride, having a blast, keeping access to shred free and at will, what is the point of this thread?

Rick Iossi


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