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Condensed Gaastra Phoenix Chat (=Gaastra comments only)

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Condensed Gaastra Phoenix Chat (=Gaastra comments only)

Postby dt » Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:52 pm

I found the answers from the Gaastra Phoenix chat to be more interesting than the question and since the answers are written well the questions are not necessary. Here are the answers:

Cory: The Phoenix flies great in 4 knots standing on the shore. Step off the shore, and you have power to cruise with 6 knots, provided you're not on a Buzz board or some lunch tray, get a 9 knot "gust" and send it! It's the real deal. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:05:33 p.m. ~

Cory: Paff, We went to great pains to make it fast, so that it penetrates, even in gusts in the high teens. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:08:11 p.m. ~

Cory: Some kite companies have put out, for example, a fast 16 and a slow, doggy 18. Riders who have tested these prefer the 'low end' of the smaller kite. We say, make the big kite faster, and you have the best solution. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:10:58 p.m. ~

Cory: The Phoenix 25 is actually comparable in speed to the GXR 19.5. The difference is that you can take the Phoenix 25 in less wind and stay powered. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:12:30 p.m. ~

Cory: A question to the group: What size kite do you find yourself using most? ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:13:56 p.m. ~

Cory: Paff, Regarding your "overpowered" question: I recently tested a proto GXR 14 in fading 10-20 knots, then stepped 'down' to the Phoenix 25 to see how "overpowered" felt. You could definitely hang on fine... not like a low A/R bag that just pulls you downwind. The 25 did flex a bit to unload, but it handled the gusts with no wierd behavior. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:21:27 p.m. ~

Cory: I haven't tried the 25 with combos, yet, but I can imagine some insane downwinders! ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:22:32 p.m. ~

Cory: Yes, there are two bladders in the leading edge, one in front of the other. The chambers are divided with a fabric shear web that is critical for keeping the desired shape. ~ June

Cory: rb stretch: When I first tested the new Phoenix 25, I immediately thought of the Vinyard Challenge, an annual sailing event around Martha's Vineyard that requires about 15 miles of windward sailing in very light conditions. It goes upwind fine! ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:25:58 p.m. ~

Cory: The depower stroke is about 4 inches, same as GXR 19.5 ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:26:53 p.m. ~

Cory: Each bladder has it's own access and port holes. They go in like any other. It's really not bad, even on the 25. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:28:24 p.m. ~

Cory: Waterstart in 8 knots was no problem, and lift (boost) is great in 9 knots. Hang time is actually better with the GXR 19.5 than with the Phoenix 21, but the Phoenix is faster. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:30:51 p.m. ~

Cory: The L/D varies with windspeed, but the max L/D is around 8 with 10 knots relative wind

Cory: Back to the board size question: It really depends on the quality of the wind as much as wind strength. For example, a gusty 5-15 knot wind might require a 150 cm or larger with some decent fins, while a steady 7 knots can be a lot of fun on a 136 Sky Pro. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:34:44 p.m. ~

Gaastra: Phoenix 25 ships with a 65 cm bar . . . we have used the kite with a 50cm, no problem ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:35:43 p.m. ~

Gaastra: 2 sizes, 65 and 50cm ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:36:42 p.m. ~

Cory: I like fast and huge for light wind, as long as it turns. Since you can kite-loop the 25 with a 50 cm bar, I'd say "fast and huge". ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:38:58 p.m. ~

Cory: Seriously, though: 6 knots is very close to 2 knots, and then you are swimming with a very large wing. Know your limits! ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:46:32 p.m. ~

Gaastra: Regarding promotion . . .Gaastra produces the materials and educates our distribuiton network prior to an official release . . . at this point the imports and retailers use theri discretion regarding demos ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:47:44 p.m. ~

Gaastra: SST Technology is patent pending . . . other companies should find other solutions. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:48:41 p.m. ~

Cory: We had a great "weight penalty" test in France. They tried starting a "race" in 6 knots that dropped to 4, then 2. The last kite to stay up (without the flyer running down the beach) was the one with the SST, so the improved aerodynamic shape must have been more important than a few grams. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:49:33 p.m. ~

Gaastra: FUncitonally our spinnig leash bar is working great . . . we're currenlty in durability testing mode ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:51:22 p.m. ~
Cory: Fritz, Yes, a good rider always adjusts his/her riding to the conditions. Unfortunately, physics requires that we ride differently in 7 knots than we do in 26 knots. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:51:32 p.m. ~

Cory: The Airblast 23 was an early attempt at getting people out in light wind. I remember it being powerful, but a bit unstable in the lulls, or after an awkward jump. The Phoenix is totally different: much more stable, faster upwind, etc. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:56:12 p.m. ~

Cory: I don't read foil design. ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:56:48 p.m. ~

Cory: For repairs, I generally use whatever I can find on site: Duct tape, adhesive-back nylon, needle and thread... ~ June 25, Wednesday 8:59:58 p.m. ~

Cory: The stability comes from two improvements: the shear web keeps the leading edge from jellyfishing, and the improved aerodynamic shape keeps the airflow from stalling. Also, the tri-radial canopy keeps the sail from blowing out. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:01:44 p.m. ~

Gaastra: At this time there is a licensing issue with regards to direct sales. The situation will be solved soon . . . belive me, I would love to sell you a rash guard ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:04:33 p.m. ~

Cory: I use the word "stable" to describe a kite that 1. Holds it's shape and 2. doesn't hindenburg or back up unexpectedly. So, yes, a rigid kite is better at holding its shape. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:04:48 p.m. ~

Cory: Ooops. Why do you want to "absorb" gusts? I like a kite to take the gust, but penetrate through it. That's why we made the Phoenix is fast. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:06:23 p.m. ~

Cory: Don't know about the Rhino 2 20, but you can definetely do kite loops with the Phoenix 25 on 27m lines and 50 cm bar. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:07:38 p.m. ~

Cory: Again, I don't know the R2 20, but I'd be willing to bet they have comparable top end, and the Phoenix 25 will go in less wind. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:08:57 p.m. ~

Cory: 6-16 if you have skills ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:09:38 p.m. ~

Cory: 6-16 knots for me on a 138 cm board. I'm 165 lbs. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:13:19 p.m. ~

Cory: What size napkin do you sail with in 45 knots? ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:14:26 p.m. ~

mike: thanks. Would you recommend the 25 to a lightweight of say 70kg and down ?? ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:14:57 p.m. ~

Cory: It takes about 11 knots to get me pumped on the GXR 19.5. With the Phoenix 25 it's more like 7 knots for the same feeling of power. You decide if it's worth it for that extra 4 knots. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:16:46 p.m. ~

Cory: I design a kite for the powered condition, but it has to depower (luff) without doing any wierd stuff. I work with computers, sewing machines, double stick tape, pocket knives... Whatever tool seems appropriate for the job. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:18:34 p.m. ~

Cory: I would expect the 115 kg riders will get the most benefit from these larger kites! Just shift with wind range up a bit... ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:20:43 p.m. ~

Gaastra: realisticly you need a gust to 8 knots for a successful relaunch ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:22:36 p.m. ~

Cory: Phoenix is shipping with the 2003 bar. It works fine when unhooked, handle passes, etc. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:22:37 p.m. ~

Cory: Kitesurferen, The Phoenix difinitely likes speed. If your mutant carries more speed, then it will be a better match for the Phoenix.... ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:23:38 p.m. ~

chrisbarrs: Cory, you have two leading edge bladders to get an elliptical shape, do you have to pump them up independently? ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:25:17 p.m. ~

Gaastra: All sizes are currently shipping ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:26:23 p.m. ~

Cory: Phoenix comes with a special new pump that has a tee and a ball valve on the hose. This allows you to pump up your battens (struts), then both leading edge bladders equally. It's actually faster than pumping up a single large LE tube. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:27:13 p.m. ~

Cory: Yes. Similar to "one pump"... ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:28:19 p.m.

Gaastra: Guttorm: Generally speaking, the Phoenix is designed as a light wind kite . . .if 17.5 will be your largest size and you are in the 65 kilo range I would recommed the Phoenix, If you want more of a freestyle kite or are a larger rider take a look at the GXR 19.5. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:29:10 p.m. ~

Cory: The best L/D is obtained when trimmed. ie: light tension on back lines. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:29:34 p.m. ~

Cory: No, not full power. Just trimmed. What's the real question? ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:31:08 p.m. ~

Cory: Yes. The A/R changes slightly with all of our sizes. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:33:56 p.m. ~

Gaastra: equal tension on the lines when your chicken loop and sheeting mechanism are at 50% ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:34:42 p.m. ~

Cory: Chrisbarrs: Please show up on time for SST 101 class... There will be a quiz... The bladders are separated by a shear web that helps the leading edge resist flex and it keeps the shape elliptical when inflated. Both benefits are important. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:35:41 p.m. ~

Gaastra: Same amount of struts all sizes ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:36:50 p.m. ~

Gaastra: There is nothing out there like the 25 . . . it is extremely diffucult to compare with our competitors who are using single chamber leading edge desings in relatively large kites ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:40:03 p.m. ~
Cory: It blew 15 knots straight on shore for an hour, then 7 days of 5 knot sea breeze when I was in Leucate. No, I didn't set a speed record, only a record for beach strolling... ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:42:07 p.m. ~

Cory: I don't know how much a 25 weighs. Can I get back to you on that one? ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:43:01 p.m. ~

Cory: The 25 does float into the sky with 4 knots, and pulls you on a board in 6 knots. Does the weight really matter? ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:43:53 p.m. ~

Cory: We have seen no wobble on the 25 until you get gusts over 20 with your heels dug in like mad, but in those conditions, you shouldn't be on a 25. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:45:21 p.m. ~

Gaastra: Gaastra's strateagy will not only include reacting to market demands but paving the way in new technologies. Our team riders and close-knit design team are always keeping watch as to what is happening and what will be needed. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:45:38 p.m. ~

Cory: PJ: The 25 will water launch with an 8 knot gust. It takes a bit of technique, but It's not hard. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:46:26 p.m. ~

Gaastra: We have built kites much larger than 30 meters but that's classified ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:47:37 p.m. ~

Cory: The Takoon span line is a good idea if you can't find any other way to keep the wing from wobbling. I was working with span lines 2 years ago with modest success, but the 'bridle' stigma steered me a different way. I'm glad, because doing the stiffening internally with the shear web has turned out to be a very nice stiffener. ~ June 25, Wednesday 9:48:38 p.m. ~

Cory: You should go upwind fine with the 25 and 90 kg and a 148, better with a 156 ~ June 25, Wednesday 10:00:17 p.m. ~

Cory: My favorite quiver is the G-spot 6 and 8, GXR 10, 12, 14, 16, 19.5 and the Phoenix 25 ~ June 25, Wednesday 10:01:47 p.m. ~

Gaastra: check out for more SST info ~ June 25, Wednesday 10:02:58 p.m. ~

Cory: OK, a 'minimum' quiver should be a G-spot 6, GXR 10, 14, 19.5 and Phoenix 25 ~ June 25, Wednesday 10:03:35 p.m. ~

Cory: For 8-30, I'd take the GXR 10-16.5, Phoenix 21 ~ June 25, Wednesday 10:06:38 p.m. ~

Cory: Thanks Toby! Time to go! Ending thought: It doesn't really matter what your quiver includes, how many brands, etc, just make your biggest kite a Phoenix and you will not regret it! ~ June 25, Wednesday 10:08:47 p.m. ~

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Postby Toby » Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:57 pm

thx for the work, dt !


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Postby Toby » Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:08 am

and the next chat is comming next Wednesday:

Flysurfer about their new light wind weapons!

More infos:


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Postby mosquito » Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:19 pm

These chat sessions are very nice and informative! Unfortunatly I missed it (was on the water) Did anyone asked about how to replace the bladders, and what prices we can expect.
tnx and good winds!

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Postby Toby » Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:23 pm

I asked about changing the bladders, and Cory told me that it is no problem to change it. maybe a bit more difficult to bring it into position but no big problem..

Prices? I don't know.

I guess soon we will have the first infos about it.


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Postby igsmith » Thu Jun 26, 2003 3:53 pm

I've seen prices online at USD $2,695 for the 25meter kite.

They better get some reps out there letting people demo them, b/c that is a lot of dough to cough up (especially for those who have gotten burned by big kites before).


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Postby Guttorm » Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:52 am

So have someone had the pleasure to compair this BIG kite to the Rino2 20 or Aero2 20?

:D Guttorm

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