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 Post subject: Flat Wave Kite Shapes Compared
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:17 am
Posts: 170
A few wave kites or kites often used in waves
Non-exhaustive listing
Missing Slingshot RPM, Ben Wilson Noise

Image

- Why does a kite turn over it's wingtip: thick wingtip - high tension between last strut and wingtip
- Why does a kite drift well: apparently due to trailing edge pointing forward
- Why does a kite relaunch quickly -: mostly a delta shape (fast relaunches are preferable in waves)
- Why does a kite moves quickly through the wind window
- Why does a kite poorly jumps (my preference in waves)
- Why does a kite goes upwind (the less struts the thicker the LEI needs to be for stiffness the lesser upwind)

Your input from experiences please
Also specify where you live or kite:
- in a windy place where waves are only when there is >5Bft (>22 knots)
- in a place where there are swell waves with hardly wind: 12-16 knots


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 Post subject: Re: Flat Wave Kite Shapes Compared
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:17 am
Posts: 170
Characteristics
a) Turning behavior (the faster the better in waves)
- Small Aspect ratio - a compact kite turns faster than a stretched kite
- Big wingtips: the leverage between front lines and back lines is bigger for less effort
- Wingtip foil tension high: the higher the wingtip foil tension the better it turns: less flapping the more aerodynamic - the less form change during turning

b) Drifting while riding the wave:
- Deeper camber - when flying backwards the relative wind decreases - deeper cambers fly better with less wind
- Long mid-strut - these kites sit deeper in window and drift better
- Trailing edge pointing forward: avoids nose diving due to weight distribution as it is not nose heavy (long mid strut helps too)
- Forward pointing trailing edge between last strut and leading edge: same as above
- Low weight: the less weight the more likely a kite stays floating when not powered by lines

c) Turning when drifting:
At this moment the lines are hanging down - hardly under tension
Thus minimal steering impulse and input - the stiffer and larger the wingtips the less force needs to be applied to the kite by the steering line in order to make the kite turn
low kite weight will increase turning behavior while drifting as low weight requires less steering impulse to get the wing to turn.

d) Jumping:
Hardly any jumping required - just enough to fly over a big breaking wave
No high Aspect ration required.

e) Relaunch needs to be quick
The last thing you want is to have your kite swallowed by the waves requiring to pull chicken-loop and safety in order to separate from kite.
The fastest kites to relaunch are delta kites - no doubt

So would the best wave kite be a delta ?
Delta wave kites:
- Waimann series
- Slingshot Rally
- North Evo
- Nobile N62
- Nobile T5
- Blade Vertigo
- Liquid Force Envy
- Takoon Pure (available as sell out or second hand)

What's your input ?


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 Post subject: Re: Flat Wave Kite Shapes Compared
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pm
Posts: 2174
Location: The Naki
What you have to do is get flying pictures of all of these kites so we can see their different profiles.


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 Post subject: Re: Flat Wave Kite Shapes Compared
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:17 am
Posts: 170
I was hoping for your honest input about these kites and their wave ability.
I know everybody has the best kite ever.
Still I hope people would give input.
There are brands that promote one or more kites as specific wave or well suited for wave, but I have serious doubts. Especially if their marketing movies don't show them in the waves but jumping kiters which is no match for waves.

Some manufacturers (like North Rebel by Sky Solbach) propose a kite with high aspect ratio which is hard to launch
During the KSP contest at Ponta Preta:
http://livestre.am/19Zke
The pro-kiter drops his North Rebel and is lucky no wave falls into his kite - takes long to relaunch although there is a decent amount of wind.

My point is: Don't believe what manufacturers tell you about wave kites.
We need real experience input from users.


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 Post subject: Re: Flat Wave Kite Shapes Compared
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pm
Posts: 2174
Location: The Naki
ok.

I have a 6m reo. It does perform really well in the waves. Drifts back nice, depoweres and powers up smoothly. has huge depower at the bar. Is really fast. Relaunch is lightning fast. solo launch is equally good. I was really impressed with a 30-40+ knot session i had. the kite was sooo easy to howling gusty winds. All you needed to do was let the bar in and out to adjust to the gusts. it was like flying in 20 knots. super easy.

Theres one negative feature. with the kite at the zenith if you pull the bar all the and then let it out fast the kite hindenburgs. I put this down to huge AOA at the bar. Its not a problem in normal flying. You just need to be weary of it when you sit the kite at the zenith.


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 Post subject: Re: Flat Wave Kite Shapes Compared
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:35 am
Posts: 257
Here is my input:

Turning: I dont want to much pull in the turn, since I want to stay close to the pocket of the wave. So if I turn the kite in a bottom turn, I dont want to be pulled away from the breaking point of the wave.

Drifting: It´s damm important. Hate when the kite is stalling. Almost all kites drift well when hooked in, but unhooked they need to be very well ballanced.

Quick relaunch: Yes please

Quickly through the window: hmmm not so important to me. When a kite goes quick through the window it ussually has good upwind performance which is important. Also you can deepower it by edging.

But I rather have good deepower on the bar. Especially in aerials I need a kite that will dump deepower when sheeting out.

Jumps poorly: Again, I dont really care. I dont jump over the white whater, I pop the board.

Upwind ability: Yes please

I live in a place, where the waves are produced by the wind. It need to be above 20 knots, so for waveriding my kite will be between size 5 and 8.

From the 2012 wave kites I have tried the Naish Bolt and Park, Slingshot Rally and Liquid Force Envy.

I had a hard choice between the Bolt and the Rally but ended up with the Slingshot Rally.

I am a fan of direct attachment of the back line - so out goes Envy. And the battle was Naish/Slingy. The flying caracteristica of the Bolt was more nice, but the Rally had a bigger wind range. Also the Rally is more simple (no pulleys) and more lightweight (3 struts). The Bolt was easier to stear unhooked but the Rally had less backstall tendensy.

Therefore the Slingshot Rally for me in 2012.


Last edited by lander on Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flat Wave Kite Shapes Compared
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:17 am
Posts: 170
For wave I wanted different kites as my boosting kites pulled me off the wave while switch riding down, turned with too much power and are hard to relaunch.
We only have waves when there is over 20 knots thus small kites are suited.

I ended up with the sell-out of Takoon Pure 7m and 5m:
- Sell-out / bargain price: even the strongest kite can be destroyed in waves - hence the less it costs the least problem I make about loosing a kite.

- Relaunch: nothing beats a delta kite - I feel more safe, thus hardly nervous as I know it will relaunch fast
- Turning: compact kite that can turn on the wingtip if needed: a) if you get hit or swallowed by a wave the faster you can move the kite around the faster you get going again b) changing direction on a wave must happen in less than a second
- Drifting: these kites drift but do not excel (think Waimann drift better)
- Drifting turning: still they turn nicely when drifting even with slack lines
- No additional power in turn - not even with a kite loop - hence on a wave you can send the kite anywhere with any turn without getting ripped of the wave - steady grunt.
- Jump: just enough to get over the wave - no floating
- Bar input: if you pull the bar towards you - the kite will slow down - you kill the grunt - you need to keep control over the bar and let fly the kite - this is not an easy kite and unsuited for beginners
- Upwind: unexpectedly the kite goes well upwind - not as good as freeride /race kites with their thin front tubes but still better than Waimann
- Speed: On a twintip I have beaten Airrush Varial and RRD Vision all on twintips on flat water - it requires steering the bar away to get more speed - then the kite really becomes fast if you want to.
- Depower is huge as expected from a delta
- Stable in zenith: not - I don't use the plastic PDS piece as this might rip the kite in the waves - be aware that with minimal winds the 7m can drop out of the sky when in zenith - thus never put it in zenith while grabbing the board or walking on the beach

- Tuning: the 5m flies out of the bag - the 7m required 13cm of bridle in order to minimize the annoying flapping just above the last struts.

- Annoying: the one pump inflation hasn't got a return valve - so you need to be quick with your finger while removing the pump.

For less than $830 for two kites with a bar it is my best deal ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Flat Wave Kite Shapes Compared
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:17 am
Posts: 170
The Pure 5 is awesome: two sessions: 32-38knots and 25-34 knots.
Really good kite: fast, upwind, no pull in turns, fast turning.
Outperformed Waiman 6.5 (Gypsy) and 5.0 (Bunny) - except for jumping: Pure doesn't really jump as it just lifts you up and puts you down. Waiman do jump better and longer - still I don't want a jump kite on waves.


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