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 Post subject: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:51 pm 
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hey guys does anybody know good tactics that the pros are using in the race course? for starts and during race some helpful strategys also pre starts how to start out in first lane and good speed whats the key? and also how to know which side of the course is favored when racing.
A question downwind, what am i looking for slow and low or high and fast also i heard when racing downwind you have to have an harmony between your apparent wind and real wind how does that work?
Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:26 pm 
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i am interested in this too.

i know tides are very important in relation to starting starboard or port.

i have heard in an interview several riders talk of keeping pressure in the kite going downwind. i assume there is an optimal angle where the kite maintains pressure while flying at the maximum angle downwind. that sounds to me like it just takes practice and feeling.


would love to get some good nuggets of info out of this thread!


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:59 am 
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I still have never actually raced someone on my raceboard, but I raced sailing small boats a lot growing up.

Which side of the line to start on?
The favored side of the line is the side that is further upwind. This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtZf_dBxS6w shows at 1:20 a bunch of guys starting on port on a port favored line. You can see when they cross in front of the guys on starboard tack because they started upwind of them (the pin side of the line was further upwind than the committee boat side).

Keep in mind though that the guys on starboard have right away over you, so the port side has to be really favored to make it worth the risk. Even if port is favored, if you mistime your start and wind up on a collision course with all the guys starting on starboard, you will have to tack to avoid them (or sail downwind to duck them if there is space). Either way, you wind up losing a lot of ground on them.

Which side of the course is favored?
That depends on a lot of factors. Could be more wind on one side of the course than the other that you can see by looking at ripples on the water. Could be, like you said, tide pushing you one way or the other so you want to stay on the side of the course closer to land to avoid the current, or further away from land to use the current if it is pushing upwind. This depends on location. If you are new to the area, you can go out with a buddy before the races start. One guy go left, one go right, and see who gets to the mark first (assuming you're usually pretty close on speed).


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:40 am 
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kinchencool wrote:
hey guys does anybody know good tactics that the pros are using in the race course? for starts and during race some helpful strategys also pre starts how to start out in first lane and good speed whats the key? and also how to know which side of the course is favored when racing.
A question downwind, what am i looking for slow and low or high and fast also i heard when racing downwind you have to have an harmony between your apparent wind and real wind how does that work?
Cheers


first of all I think there are two different things you are asking. The tactics of racing...learn your gear, be able to control it make your tacks hold your lines, all the needed skills. Also know the rules and follow them. These will allow you to implement strategy into tactics.

The other side to tactics would be strategy....when it comes to strategy this will change from location to location. Tide can affect it, but it is spot dependent. I would say take out your board, and check the lines before racing.

other things you can do to implement your strategy....
first thing I would say bring a watch so you can time the start..make sure you have a good position. This will mean bumping boards and kites out there, but it is all part of the fun..as long as you have decent power you'll be good...if you tangle don't panic.

Do not always follow the crowd. I've had some success where noticing small changes in wind direction leaving everyone that is on a regular tack worse off for the upwind mark where I sped up...

Watching good riders is fun even in the race..they will smoke me out of the water for sure, but see them control their tacks to a tee...no out riding the upwind mark or stupid misses on the marks. Great fun to watch and you'll learn a lot.
Make sure you can keep pressure on your legs...

hmm, tons of stuff..maybe someone who knows what they are doing could help a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:49 am 
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tautologies wrote:
Do not always follow the crowd. I've had some success where noticing small changes in wind direction leaving everyone that is on a regular tack worse off for the upwind mark where I sped up...


interesting. as the apparent speed is so high I was assuming small jumps in wind direction did not had such a high impact...

somehow i see kite race more close to a kind of a horse race than to sailing....


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Tiago1973 wrote:
somehow i see kite race more close to a kind of a horse race than to sailing....

Seems like that is what slalom racing is like. A little bit of tactics at the mark roundings, but mostly it is a drag race downwind. Just go as fast as you can in a straight line and don't mess up your jibes at the marks.

Apparent wind speed shouldn't change the fact that if you tack on the right wind shifts, you're going upwind a lot faster (same board speed with higher angle = higher VMG) than someone who doesn't and you will be the first to the mark.


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:33 pm 
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davesails7 wrote:
Tiago1973 wrote:
somehow i see kite race more close to a kind of a horse race than to sailing....

Seems like that is what slalom racing is like. A little bit of tactics at the mark roundings, but mostly it is a drag race downwind. Just go as fast as you can in a straight line and don't mess up your jibes at the marks.

Apparent wind speed shouldn't change the fact that if you tack on the right wind shifts, you're going upwind a lot faster (same board speed with higher angle = higher VMG) than someone who doesn't and you will be the first to the mark.

everything being equal, yes. but i guess i miss to make my point

if you look into kite those guys go +2x the wind speed, if you think on a Snipe or any other small boat how fast they go? half of the wind speed?

small changes on the external conditions - wind, tide, etc - in a kite will impact, proporcionally, way less than on a small sailing boat

as such my assumption is that the ability to generate and mantain speed is much more important on a kite than it is on sailing, where the focus is in taking advange of shifts of the external conditions to your advantage and not so much how fast could you go

that´s why i was saying it´s a kind of a horse race if i think in typicall sailing

but never race, could be talking stupid things...


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:39 pm 
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I see what you are saying. It does seem like there is more skill involved in getting boardspeed on a kiteboard as compared to a typical dinghy, so if you are really good at riding fast and don't know anything about tactics you could still do pretty well? I don't really know because I've never been in a race either :D

I think that results show that tactics is most important though. It seems like top level sailors become fast kite racers pretty quickly.

One large portion of sailing tactics that is missing in kiting (I think) is covering downwind. In sailing, overtaking boats on the downwind leg is done by blocking the wind from getting to the boat in front of you. I don't think you can do this with the kite (much) because the kites are always moving. Or am I wrong about this and you can take someone's wind on a kite?


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:44 pm 
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davesails7 wrote:
I see what you are saying. It does seem like there is more skill involved in getting boardspeed on a kiteboard as compared to a typical dinghy, so if you are really good at riding fast and don't know anything about tactics you could still do pretty well?

not against good riders.

I think getting the board speed is the basics...and the good riders have that dialed in like you would not believe it..super fun to measure yourself against. That said, you lose them out of sight pretty fast :-)

Quote:
I think that results show that tactics is most important though. It seems like top level sailors become fast kite racers pretty quickly.

yup..if you know the spots and how the wind works you can get a significant advantage. If the course is set up as a diamond along the shore, a slight shift in wind direction can have you go almost straight up to the upwind mark. If you do this at start and you can avoid the main group (depending on which tack you are) you can achieve something. I am guessing the really good riders have this pretty dialed in.

The start is super important and you'd see a lot of negotiation for space..super fun when the start goes and 50 kites all go into overdrive...it nuts and super fun at the same time.

Quote:

One large portion of sailing tactics that is missing in kiting (I think) is covering downwind. In sailing, overtaking boats on the downwind leg is done by blocking the wind from getting to the boat in front of you. I don't think you can do this with the kite (much) because the kites are always moving. Or am I wrong about this and you can take someone's wind on a kite?


Well I don't think the wind blocking can be done as effectively since we can more the sail, but there are certain tactics that can be used while passing marks. If you are behind passing a mark can change the yield rules (I can't remember the terminology for this)...assuming the guys you are racing care about that :lol: :lol:

either way I have not competed at a high level but good racers have participated in the races and it is really good fun.

Dave you should come over here and we can set up a little local / casual race. We do it every 2 to 4 months....and then we drink beer, BBQ and share some laughs. No good racers on those races tho...


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 Post subject: Re: any tactics for kiteboard racing?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:22 pm 
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coleman wrote:
i have heard in an interview several riders talk of keeping pressure in the kite going downwind. i assume there is an optimal angle where the kite maintains pressure while flying at the maximum angle downwind.


This reference to pressure is actually a reference to the wind and staying in it!
You go faster when your in it than the guy who didn't gybe at the right time and wasn't taking notice where all the little gusts of wind are ;)


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