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Foilboards for Course Races

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Chris0106
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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby Chris0106 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Why are the foilboards slower on the downwind legs but faster on the upwind?

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lezo
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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby lezo » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:29 am

Chris0106 wrote:Why are the foilboards slower on the downwind legs but faster on the upwind?


Big door-style twin tips are also quite competitive upwind and loose ground on the downwind legs.

My personal guess is that it's related to the wetted surface area: directionals are able to reduce this area considerably on the downwind leg.

Once more, we are faced with the typical engineering dilemma of the optimal trade-off between efficiency and robustness. Foils can be very efficient in specific conditions but are less robust, since they are sensitive to rough seas, seaweed and driver skill. Door TTs are very robust but overall less efficient. For now, directionals seem to be a good compromise between these two extremes, pretty well adapted to varied conditions and rider skills and still sufficiently efficient to beat foils in most races.

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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby foiler » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:46 am

I think the class rules should keep the door open for every kiter who is interested in racing.
No matter what riding style he prefers (twintip, directional, foilboard). More variety attracts more people and guarantees bigger starterfields - that makes fun!

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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby foiler » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:57 pm

here is the answer to the petition from Markus Schwendtner (IKA- Executive Secretary):

Hi Mario,

I am happy to discuss this further, but for now a short answer.

The idea of having different classes is to have comparable equipment
for the riders, so that it is not the board but the rider who makes
the difference. You also will not have an optimist racing against an
americas cup yacht.

I think we should separate them, as there are not so many at the
moment it will not be an international class but can still be a
class administered by the IKA, and they can race together but will
be scored separately. For the event (like in Douarnenez) there can
be also an overall ranking, and then division rankings. No problem
with that.

Would this satisfy the foilboarders ?

Regards,
Markus

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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby holden » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:16 pm

The idea of having different classes is to have comparable equipment
for the riders, so that it is not the board but the rider who makes
the difference. You also will not have an optimist racing against an
americas cup yacht.

i totally disagree with this statement. i think you have to figure out what you want. eighter to compare riders only than all riders have to use (almost) the same material. like optimist class races. or you want to encourage developement. then the more open the better. since kiteracing is so young i would definately go for the second option. if it ends up that all kiters use foilboard, so what? if it ends up all going directionals, fine to me and the same suits me with twintips. as it seems to be right now, all three types of boards are competitive. what can be more interesting? maybe even a fourth type of kiteboard will show up? if you say, that the board should not make the difference between win or lose try a north ltd from 2009 and some recent directional with four fins. unless you make rules very strikt you will never be able to prevent the influence of the board on the results.
thanks for bringing up this topic, mario!

cheers, h.

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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby leepasty » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:58 pm

I think that racing has to and will definately become one design. it really is the only way forward in my opinion and needs to be if kiting is ever going to be in the olympics!
at the moment a lot of people are being put off racing as they havent got the money to spend on a new board a week and its not so much fun if you are doing your best but coming last due to your board being out of date.
for me i am really keen on racing but i have not got the money to buy and develop boards constantly so no matter how hard i train both on and off the water at each event i am off the pace due to my board being a couple of months old!
i personally cant wait for a one design to come out so that we can all compete on more of a level playing field rather than the top guys who get their boards made and have designers with them at events being way in front due to their board. well done to the winners at the worlds but i am sure the races will be won by a bigger variety of riders once the boards are one design.
i am sure their will be spin off races/events for development boards, foils, tts and all but world champs, olympics, nationals, world tours need to have equipment rules to open up to the masses. look at windsurfing and how slamon died due to all the kit needed only for formula to bring back racing in a big way.
cheers
and happy racing
lee

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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby Toby » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:40 pm

More variety attracts more people and guarantees bigger starterfields - that makes fun!


if they all race for one title, it won't attract more people to get involved if you ask me.

If you split the classes, you will see more racers for sure.

I hate directionals, why should I try to keep up with them on my twintip?

If there is a twintip class, I would race as well, knowing, I do have a chance to be up there.
I don't want to race with directionals, knowing, I will always be last or second last. That's why I don't race anymore.

3 girls raced at PKRA Germany. Why only 3? I talked to other girls, and they said: I would love to race, but I don't have such boards. If twintips would have a chance, I would be competing.

Girls are not the tech people...they want to go out and rip, and not spend hours over hours taking a millimeter of a fin or whatever...

Sailing has many different classes. Why? I guess to satisfy everyones needs and to attract all that different sailors.

This is not an easy task for our sport.

But I am sure, that if we have different classes, also pure twintip classes, we will have more people racing.

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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby holden » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:53 pm

@leepasty: this discussion als as old as racing. i think on the long run you need both one-design and open class. wihtout the open classes we would never have seen beauties like the america cuppers or those cool moths http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKJMP8EmZjw
and without one-desing classes the opti-kiddies would never be able to compete and see who is the best. maybe it is already time to have them both.

@toby: i agree with you. for all who don't want to spend 100% of their money and 150% of their time and still want to win if they've done their homework a one-design class would do the trick. but it is then not a matter of twintips, directionals and foils. i have seen twintips with replaceable huge fins in the middle, with spoilers an you name it. even with twintips the design for racing is not over at all therfore you have got the same problem all over again. leepasty mentioned the rapid development with directionals.

dividing the field into the most obvious features doesn't solve the problem a bit. as long as they perform rather equally as they do right now there is no need for that. developing a one-design class would be a great thing.

h.

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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby MKM » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:29 pm

I see the points raised here. If you are looking to increase participation it is the courses that need to be adjusted. I personally feel that Windward / Leeward racing will be the highest end of the sport and really represents "racing" as it is not simply speed, but tactics.

The truth is that this area of the sport is still too small to fragment at this point by having different classes, etc. I'd suggest having a series of reaching races that are better suited to Twin Tips and participation. While everyone thinks that they ride a pro level, when you make average riders race up wind and down wind, they rarely succeed. This simply isn't "fun" for them. Put the same riders in a reaching course (their normal riding conditions) and they have a great time. This way, the directional boards and twins can race competitively together. As racing progresses and grows, classes, etc. will have to be discussed, but for now the sport and racing will benefit by more open development.

I personally favor a "box" rule that is liberal in nature to allow for some development. In a season or two things will slow and riders will be able to purchase competitive equipment easily from brands.

Kent

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Re: Foilboards for Course Races

Postby Wawando » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:24 pm

Hi,

From my point of view, race is race. Pure competition: who goes around the circuit faster.
I think we must learn from history. Apples must be compared to apples.
Even in "closed classes" there is still lots of room for different fin sizes, board sizes, etc.
If the class is too open, gear differences take all the fun away.
So i think that classes might be a way. If not enough participants, then a single one might be organized in a event.
I think that foils should be a different class. It is a different sport.
But to have the competition addictness, things must feel fair and we should not overlook the gear being taken into attention in the equation.
In race, it is essential to have the feeling of being close to win, you must feel you can win and it just depends on you.

See you!

A little off-topic, but great footage, watch from minute 4 :jump:


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